Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS • Hacker News Board

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#331

Post by xfer » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 6:07 AM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #272

oblio wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is false. Windows used to be a sieve. The infection rates and general abuse Windows received went down by orders of magnitude once they added UAC and the default malware scanner/antivirus. And they didn't need to lock down everything, completely. The rest is an easy money grab from the OS vendors who obviously don't want to remain "dumb pipes".

Before Windows Vista there was no real file permissions. Linux file permisdions are still kinda rubbish. Move a file from system A to system B and it's oner is no longer Rob, its now Bob because they have the same Id!

Wait till you figure out there can even be 2 people named Rob.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#332

Post by lostlogin » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 6:21 AM UTC

GeekyBear wrote: post #287

harry8 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The 30% cut was considered very good at the time." Let me fix this. There was a full range of views. Some considered the 30% cut to be good at the time, some didn't consider it much at all, some considered it to be a criminal abuse of market power. I remember commenting myself that microsoft would be crucified for attempting to tax everyone who wanted to write software for windows 30% of revenue. I don't recall anyo…

You want to talk about a criminal abuse of market power? Microsoft used to charge ridiculous fees for things as simple as submitting a patch for an XBox 360 game. >Double Fine's Tim Schaefer pegged the cost of submitting an Xbox 360 patch at $40,000 in an interview with Hookshot Inc. earlier this year. "We already owe Microsoft a LOT of money for the privilege of being on their platform," he said. "People often mista…

> $40,000

There are probably a few developers who’d love to pay just 40k to Apple.

Given that review costs are fixed, what is the cost of distribution?

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#333

Post by GeekyBear » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 6:30 AM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #332

GeekyBear wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want to talk about a criminal abuse of market power? Microsoft used to charge ridiculous fees for things as simple as submitting a patch for an XBox 360 game. >Double Fine's Tim Schaefer pegged the cost of submitting an Xbox 360 patch at $40,000 in an interview with Hookshot Inc. earlier this year. "We already owe Microsoft a LOT of money for the privilege of being on their platform," he said. "People often mista…

> $40,000 There are probably a few developers who’d love to pay just 40k to Apple. Given that review costs are fixed, what is the cost of distribution?

The cost of vetting your app and it's updates are included in the 30%, not an additional $40,000 fee on top of it.

Note the developer saying that with all the additional costs, they ended up in the hole instead of making a profit.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#334

Post by saagarjha » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 6:34 AM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #301

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"You want access to their customers" Last time i checked, corporations were not allowed to own people, has that changed? >"So you're going after Bosch for anti-competitively not allowing you to sell software that runs on their washing machines, and not allowing owners to sideload?" You are not helping your case by making these daft comparisons.

Perhaps referring to people who buy and use X's products and services as "X's customers" is unfamiliar to you, but it's in very common usage, and conveys no element of ownership: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22apple%27s%20custome... > " You are not helping your case by making these daft comparisons. " The person I was originally replying to is the one who brought up washing machines as having general purpos…

What if Alice lives in a gated community because it has a pool and would like to receive mail that hasn’t been pre-screened?

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#335

Post by saagarjha » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 6:35 AM UTC

grishka wrote: post #132

jodrellblank wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't required to use the Apple store to distribute your product. You can sell to Android users and desktop/laptop users. > " That's different. That's very different Is it? Why is it? You can't sell software to run on Kindle Paperwhite even though it's a full computer inside. What's the specific difference between that and iOS, other than "Apple's ecosystem and customers are desirable, so I want to use it" and "…

> You aren't required to use the Apple store to distribute your product. You can sell to Android users and desktop/laptop users. You aren't making much sense. You won't have any semblance of adoption if you don't have presence on iOS. Except maybe in India where iOS market share is tiny. > You can't sell software to run on Kindle Paperwhite even though it's a full computer inside. It's an appliance. It's marketed as…

> Yet no one raises any objections about not being able to run arbitrary code on them.

I would certainly love to be able to do this.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#336

Post by simonh » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 6:58 AM UTC

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #249

simonh wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation on Android shows us that consumers like consolidation and they like walled gardens and simple choices. These things benefit them. Plenty of Android phones come with 2 or 3 app stores. One for the carrier, one for the vendor and Google Play Store. There plenty are others as well, but the market has spoken. Even Epic had to fold and move to Play Store. Maybe Google played dirty, but I think it's perfectly…

Are people buying software through steam because they like the consolidated experience? Or because they trust it more than an exe from a random website? Or because steam already has their credit card info stored? Or because it's the only place to obtain certain games? It's some combination of these things (and some others I haven't considered), and the value all of this added up, minus steam's downsides, is apparentl…

There are alternatives, you can sell the software directly from your own website. Publishers have decided that the reach the store gives them is worth the 30%.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#337

Post by yoz-y » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:03 AM UTC

PartiallyTyped wrote: post #254

threeseed wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please provide evidence of this because Apple's official documentation says otherwise: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203033 They do send nearly WiFi hotspots for crowd sourcing purposes but it is never in conjunction with your local IP address (which is an identifying piece of information).

Nearby WiFi spots can be easily used to track device location. Here is a neat little project that does exactly that for IOT tracking [1]. [1] https://github.com/dmsl/anyplace

Nearby wifi hotspot location is the base for aGPS. Without it it would be slower and eat up more battery.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#338

Post by simonh » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:03 AM UTC

throwaway2048 wrote: post #236

simonh wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes Steam are still perfectly comfortable staying at 30% as I said it's clearly a market driven level.

Steam keys sold off steam do not give valve a cut.

Right, they believe their store value is enough for them to compete with 0%.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#339

Post by simonh » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:07 AM UTC

sellyme wrote: post #259

simonh wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation on Android shows us that consumers like consolidation and they like walled gardens and simple choices. These things benefit them. Plenty of Android phones come with 2 or 3 app stores. One for the carrier, one for the vendor and Google Play Store. There plenty are others as well, but the market has spoken. Even Epic had to fold and move to Play Store. Maybe Google played dirty, but I think it's perfectly…

> The idea that users would all be side loading apps and developers would be making far more money having their apps spread across 5+ different stores that would compete down to lower prices is delusional. If that were the case, why has this not happened on Windows or MacOS where side loading is actually the default yet Steam, GOG, etc still charge 30%? That has happened. The majority of my 20,000 Steam games were ac…

You are in a teeny tiny minority. I made it clear I'm talking about the mass market. These arguments are made under the false presence (or delusion) that they are in the interests of the broad base of users who would get lower prices. They would not, we can see that clearly from the Android and PC games markets.

These arguments are being made by a tiny minority for the benefit of a small community of techies who already have platforms available to them that work they way you want and take advantage of it, like you do. It's like coupon clippers insisting on a law that all products sold must some with discount coupons.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#340

Post by fogihujy » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:23 AM UTC

GeekyBear wrote: post #322

greggman3 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the specifics of Xbox and patches but I do know that in general, at least in the past, shipping a game on Playstation required thousands of hours of testing by Sony employees. They didn't take your word for it that your app worked. They ran it through a battery of manual testing. Examples, does it recover if someone turns off the power in the middle of saving a game. At that point the save game file may…

What does that have to do with submitting a simple bug fix? How can that possibly cost $40,000 except through an extreme abuse of monopoly power? A simple 30% cut with no other price gouging additional fees was a huge improvement over the status quo. That article has a developer literally saying that in the end, their percentage of the profit on the XBox 360 was a negative number.

> How can that possibly cost $40,000 except through an extreme abuse of monopoly power?

Microsoft has to handle patch distribution, patching itself, tech support for patching, complaints and rollbacks and so on for many years after release -- remember, they still provide patches for Xbox 360 games sold in 2005!

If something breaks then I expect the total costs for all that could easily exceed $40k for very popular titles. Just imagine how many installs of FIFA '06 - '19 (the versions available for Xbox 360) there is! This is obviously not the case with an indie platformer purchased by a few thousand players, though, so for smaller businesses $40k would hurt badly, while it's probably a very good bargain for EA and the likes.

Considering the recent backlash regarding Cyberpunk 2077 on Xbox One/PS4 (not to mention Mass Effect: Andromeda a few years ago), I'd say rigorous testing is warranted. I doubt CP2077 would even have been released for those platforms if they had been properly tested in the first place (not that it would have been an option to not release the game -- It's been pre-orderable for over a year, and the Xbox live store was full of ads for it for many months before the release).

The same logic applies to patches -- if a patch were to actually break a game then it needs to be handled and that isn't necessarily cheap.