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Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

swissinfo.ch

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Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#331

Post by 2rsf »

croes wrote: post #314
nickez wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is all public data. You can get that through open channels like birthday.se as well. I've been at BankID and I know for a fact exactly what information they store. They store only what is necessary from a regulatory standpoint.

A paradise for identity theft

Practically identity theft the way you think about are very rare in Sweden, more common are social engineering attempts like calling people and asking them to use their MobilBank ID while the caller logs in in their name.

Remember that personal ID numbers are not a big secret in Sweden as well, and still we don't see any big problem with that.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#332

Post by 2rsf »

dagw wrote: post #185
null_object wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> BankID doesn't store any information I work with systems that use BankID identification, and know for a fact that you are wrong, because many (though not all) of the data-points collected by the banks can be retrieved for payment. For instance, if you just logged-in with the service I work with, I can retrieve your full-name, birthdate, your marital status, name of your spouse, their birthdate, any children and the…

But surely if someone has your person number then they can retrieve all that information from companies like Ratsit and the like. Is there specific information you can get via BankID that isn't generally available from other 'open' databases?

What information do you think about? you can get a person's yearly tax statement without BankID but you can't see their bank account details

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#333

Post by deepstack »

Good for Switzerland! The only reason US (or maybe other countries) out source their gov contract to private companies is because it makes kickbacks for their friends. Public sector ought to be separated from private. And electronic ID may be counter productive for a democratic government.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#334

Post by 2rsf »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #277
nickez wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Sweden we have a company running the ID system and that works fine. The company is coowned by all the large banks afaik. I was really surprised at how far behind Switzerland is compared to Scandinavia when it comes to digitalisation. Being able to handle my life hassle free online instead of going to physical places (like post office, banks, gov office) is liberating. I also get all my bills digitally and all my r…

> Being able to handle my life hassle free online instead of going to physical places (like post office, banks, gov office) is liberating. The US has an incoherent assemblage of spare parts for an ID system and it's been years since I've seen the inside of a physical bank. You have bank credentials and use them with with the bank. You have post office credentials and use them with the post office. This is far better…

But aren't they all based on one central ID? how can the post office or bank know that you are who you claim to be without an official ID?

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#335

Post by 2rsf »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #271
tchalla wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you willing to give up your privacy to corporates to be liberated online?

most importantly, what about those that are not ? Is that decision made without their consent ?

It's not mandatory, there are, less convenient, ways to work without it

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#336

Post by elmo2you »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #301
ketzu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The universal declaration of human rights 12 [1] contains the very important word "arbitrary" as a qualifier of privacy violations. > No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks. One reason for this has broad applicability: Ev…

If you do it to everyone, is it still arbitrary?

Yes, it can be (depending on what you do).

Arbitrary doesn't just mean treating individuals differently (discrimination) without a proper legal justification. It also applies to any government or business that overextends their legal mandate, by subjecting people (even if equally) to limitations that have no legal basis.

I'm well aware that this rather quickly conflicts with some almost religious belief that anything can be limited through contracts, EULAs and TOSes (as long as its done voluntarily).

When people have alternatives, without such limitations, one can argue that people still have a freedom to do things differently. When a product or service becomes some kind of necessity, or not using it somehow becomes a personal limitation of its own, then such contractual limitation essentially have just created a new "law" outside of the only official process that is supposed to govern the creation of laws.

Businesses who create rules that essentially function like "private law", and governments who create laws without proper legal mandate/justification, are guilty of arbitrary behavior. Not because they treat individual people differently, but because their treatment all people is itself an arbitrary choice. As in, it lacks legal justification and goes beyond the legal authority that such a government or business has.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#337

Post by paedubucher »

wombatmobile wrote: post #55

Switzerland has an awesome electoral system [1]. Instead of being ruled by a president or a prime minister who can be polarising, divisive, or selective, Switzerland has an Executive Council. The 7 member Executive Council is composed of the top 7 candidates from each election. The chairperson of the executive council rotates each year, so that the top 4 vote winners each get a turn at being chairperson. This means t…

> The 7 member Executive Council is composed of the top 7 candidates from each election.

The executive council is elected by the parliament and also contains candidates that haven't been member of that parliament. This election takes part "seat by seat", so every member has to be explicitly re-elected.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#338

Post by cies »

DocTomoe wrote: post #329
Ascarius wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually at the same votation, Switzerland accepted a law which forbid women to wear Burka. Which is not exactly let live.

We need to be precise here. Firstly "accepting a law" implies - in western liberal democracies - a legislative process in which a law is proposed and accepted by some kind of parliament. This is not what happened here - in Switzerland, laws can be given to the population directly by non-parliamentary, non-governmental organisations in referenda, which then become binding. The law you are referring to was accepted by…

Exactly. Genital mutilation of minors is next (Scandinavia is front running here). Nothing judeo-islamophobic, just the protection of what is dear to all of us (in this case bodily autonomy of children), and in no means against circumcision: you may still do it when you are 18, just parents should not be allowed to do it to you.

A little tyranny of the majority is not always a bad thing.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#339

Post by tingle »

esja wrote: post #8

Quite a few people who voted against this did so purely because they didn’t want private companies controlling the system. If the proposal had been for the government to issue and control the identities, it may well have passed.

That was my rationale for voting "no". The task of deciding who is swiss and who isn't shouldn't be entrusted to some AI running on a facebook server.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#340

Post by cies »

marcod wrote: post #305
wombatmobile wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be expressing an opinion about banning Muslim face coverings. I am not responding to your expression of opinion - just clarifying how the Swiss electoral system is structured. That vote was a referendum, which is another component of the Swiss system, separate and complimentary to the Executive Council. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_Switzerland

My bad, I thought the anti electronic ID vote was also a referendum. Populist ideas, can easily thrive in a direct democracy.

It was. And the face covering ban was spinned to be against the customs of a minority. It is still allowed indoors.

Every country has some clothing requirements. Some mandate headscarfs (for women only), some mandate the face remains visible. No laws were needed for this in Swiss because no people were covering up. But now this has changed, so laws come. I dont find any problem with it, and hope that the "custom" of genital mutilation done to children is next to be forbidden. You can still do it, at 18, but yr parents should not be able to decide for you. Not against jews/muslims, just in favor of childrens rights. Scandinavia is front running on this one.

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