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Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

nytimes.com

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Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#331

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

hardtke wrote: post #296
gonehome wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much broken with modern universities and incentives around pricing - why are all degrees four years? Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? I wrote a little about it in the context of Lambda School, but it mostly applies: https://zalberico.com/essay/2019/04/08/lambda-school.html “The current university system in the US is a mes…

> Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? Maybe I am deluding myself because my daughter has decided to get an expensive classics degree, but the most valuable skill one can acquire in college is how to communicate, particularly how to write well. The second most valuable skill is learning how to master complicated material. Each major teac…

I think you are romanticizing the idea of a liberal arts degree. To put it shortly, engineers, certified mechanics, HVAC folks and other never have to go to such means to justify the existence of their educational programs. Only when we are talking about true liberal arts, do we see people wax poetic about everything other than the usefulness of the subject material.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#332

Post by anonuser123456 »

DC-3 wrote: post #11
awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

Did it ever occur to you at all that people might value education for its own sake and not for potential financial yield alone?

Yes. And generally no, they don't.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#333

Post by cwwc »

awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

Curious to see how this plays out in law schools — UPenn and UVA have seen 40%+ bumps in applications (guessing it’s even higher at HYS) while schools like Duquesne or Belmont are struggle busing.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#334

Post by [deleted] »

ativzzz wrote: post #325
hardtke wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? Maybe I am deluding myself because my daughter has decided to get an expensive classics degree, but the most valuable skill one can acquire in college is how to communicate, particularly how to write well. The second most valuable skill is learning how to master complicated material. Each major teac…

While those skills are useful for life, they are "worth" nothing in the marketplace without the ability to sell yourself. Ultimately a classics degree only limits her job options in the short term. An engineer can go be an engineer, or transition to anything a classics grad can be, assuming both can sell themselves equally well. (if we are assuming high quality white collar jobs that pay well and have good career pro…

[deleted]

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#335

Post by treis »

awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

>I think this is generally a good thing

I don't think it's a real trend. You only need to apply to one or two safety schools while you can apply to any number of good/reach schools. Those schools have made the admission process much more random. Used to be that your grades + SATs mostly determined who would accept you. Now it's whatever impressed some random admissions drone and who knows what they really want? So you shoot your shot with 40 reaches and hope one of them likes you. If you're a strong candidate you have to apply to more schools in case you get randomly rejected.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#336

Post by [deleted] »

mitchdoogle wrote: post #166
awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

I think people need to stop thinking about higher education in terms of financial yield. Or at least make it a much smaller piece of the metric. If that's the only metric you base your opinions of education on, then ask yourself this - why learn anything in your life that isn't directly related to your occupation?

[deleted]

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#337

Post by derbOac »

awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

I guess I feel the opposite -- although I think the system of higher education is fundamentally broken in the US, I see this amplifying problems, not improving them.

Already I think the difference in actual education supplied by elite colleges vs less well-known colleges is vastly exaggerated (most evidence suggests the differences are preexisting, due to students, and that variance is just greater at some schools than others). So the branding thing is somewhat empty and unnecessary. And as for the skill acquisition, I'm more inclined to agree with you there, although I think there's already a dangerous tendency to equate degree with skillset (that is, "you are what your degree is"). Both of these lead to a very stereotyped, one-dimensional perspective on people.

I guess overall I just see this as amplifying inequality trends that are already unjustified, worsening societal problems. There's too much of an all-or-nothing attitude about human beings at the moment, and this just makes it worse by extending it to colleges writ large.

I think there's a lot of unnecessary degree work out there, and think academics is basically broken, but this trend isn't really the best one in my opinion, unless it's ultimately leading to complete collapse, elite colleges and all, and some kind of restructuring. But I don't see that happening. To me it seems like this is just reifying prejudice.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#338

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

michaelt wrote: post #315
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have the wrong idea because of the headline prices of elite schools. Yes, the prices are high. On the other hand, no-one who is admitted to (say) Harvard is going to be prevented from going by an inability to pay. These top schools are rich enough to fund need-based scholarships. (source: wife is a professor at an Ivy League school)

Nobody's "unable to pay" so long as there are government-backed undischargable loans on offer.

Please look at some actual data, e.g.

https://admissions.yale.edu/affordability-details

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#339

Post by 908B64B197 »

lokar wrote: post #288
908B64B197 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I remember fighting for a candidate who I thought was super smart and could get things done, but he was from a mid-tier State school and not from Stanford and that was the end of it. If HR has anything to do with how engineers are selected there's something wrong with the company. They are there to schedule interviews and take care of the paperwork.

Recruiters (part of HR) select the subset of resumes that an engineer (IC or manager) will then pick from to have an actual (phone) interview. It really sort of has to work that way. The volume and variance in quality is just overwhelming. There is no way someone technical could look at every resume.

Yeah, but the parent referred to a time where he (an engineer) specifically screened a candidate for an engineering position.

In this case, the HR rep's opinion should have been ignored right away.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#340

Post by intended »

awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

No its not - If you read the article

> The Common App’s data does not include community colleges because they typically allow anyone to enroll. But those schools, which often provide low-income students a first step into higher education, also saw steep declines. In the fall of 2020, freshmen enrollment fell by more than 20 percent.

The two trends in the article are a 17% increase in applications for the most selective institutions and a 20% drop for community colleges.

The Times uses weasel words here

>some selective schools saw big increases from students who are typically underrepresented at elite institutions. The University of California, Berkeley, received 38 percent more applications from Black, Latino and Native American hopefuls than in 2019.

Meaning only some selective institutions, the Berklely increase in applications was because they waived the standardized test.

Knowing application patterns this is bad news - it means that poorer people, especially undergrads have not applied this year.

It is unlikely that those same people just turned around and applied to Cornell. I argue that the increase in apps to elite institutions is from people who left the workforce from good jobs. They are making a strategic move to weather the COVID storm and come out on the other side better off.

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