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Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

reuters.com

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Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#331

Post by foolinaround »

dang wrote: post #325
foolinaround wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for replying! If we were to have a seperate thread, then folks should absolutely not post these things in regular threads, thus leaving them cleaner and with a better tone. they are free to reference this incident on the grievance thread. There, different downvote rules should apply of course. There might be others who feel the same way, and therefore might upvote it. So, this way, you can get a sense of how m…

I understand the appeal, but users wouldn't abide by such a restriction on normal threads. The more one tried to force it, the more energy one would provoke to get around it or overcome it. It would be a lost cause because it goes against human nature. People feel what they feel when they feel it; you can't stop them from expressing it, and trying to stop them would only multiply it.

ok, got it.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#332

Post by jolux »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #323
jolux wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My point is, social relations are complex. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence. In general it does mean freedom from legal consequences and government interference, with few exceptions.

Is that really good enough? Why is freedom from government interference all you care about?

It's not all that I care about, but the government has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. I have recourse to that force if another private entity harms me. Who do I have recourse to if the government harms me?

I consider freedom of speech a baseline, and I think it's one of the only things the US Constitution got right.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#333

Post by emptysongglass »

bane wrote: post #253
ConcreteGidget wrote: post #63

Does anyone have any book recommendations for non-chinese people to understand CCP power structures? I'm completely lost in all of this Jack Ma stuff.

The Chinese government is highly structured and in general features most of the things one might expect in a modern nation-state (an executive, a legislature, a court system, etc.) The exception, and what makes it hard to understand for outsiders, is that one of the political parties (Chinese Communist Party) is also an extra, supervisory, branch of government and sits on-top of and permeates all the regular bureaucr…

Where did you get this knowledge? I suspect from books and if so I'd like to know which ones, please.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#334

Post by throwaway19937 »

sebmellen wrote: post #169
FooBarWidget wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, I don't even consider myself particularly pro-CCP. But CCP is the only party that actually advances the interests of Chinese civilization. All the other parties only care about destroying CCP, no matter the negative consequences to Chinese society. Also, half of the reasons people use to oppose the CCP, are either false, or based on twisted half-truths. When I see such unwarranted attacks, how can I not…

That's an interesting insight — that the CCP is perhaps the best choice of many bad choices (the "lesser evil" as we say in the US). I do understand your perspective, but I respectfully disagree (though I do admit I don't know that much about how China really works). Of course, China is a developed economy, and there is a lot of really impressive and legitimate industry in China. The hardware markets of Shenzen, the…

> 1. The invasion of Tibet (everyone seems to have forgotten about this)

Tibet is strategically important to the Chinese.

It's a major water source and the origin of the Mekong, Yangtze, and Yellow rivers. Allowing Tibet to remain independent would mean that India could occupy Tibet, use it as a base for invasion, and cut off China's water supply. There were skirmishes along the Tibet-Indian border earlier this year; it's not a theoretical threat. Any great power would use force under these circumstances.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#335

Post by dirtyid »

duxup wrote: post #281
dirtyid wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it shouldn't be that weird, Ma overstepped with his speech and is carefully negotiating the minefield he's currently in. Alibaba stock rebounded ~5% since his showing. He'll slowly work his way back into public life as is customary for nature of his infraction. If CCP wanted to disappear him long term, there'd be predictable and fraud/corruption charges already laid.

The situation is weird regardless of the existence of a charity.

It's typical Chinese politics to the point of status quo. Kill the chicken to scare the monkeys. This development is what anyone with understanding of the Chinese system has repeated in past posts on the subject matter, but people dismiss in preference for rampant conspiracy theories. General commentary: if HN audience insists on flamewarring over Chinese topics, there should be some effort to learn about how Chinese system operates instead of insipid shallow commentaries or predilection for shill accusations despite many Chinese HNers engaging in good faith.

To elaborate more broadly on the subject: these incidents are relatively formulaic to the point where it's reasonably straight forward to guess outcomes based on political status of individual and nature of infraction. Prominent individuals severely contradicting official line = CCP send you on temporary contrition vacation, repeat infractions = corruption charges -> jail. If individual is public official or nature of infraction affects political structure i.e. actual massive corruption or negligence that undermines public safety -> up to death, though more life sentences or death with reprieves in recent times. Less significant individuals (like activists) get invited to drink tea at police stations, sign and various warnings before escalating to boilerplate disturbing social order sentences and successively longer sentences. Ma's more business class than political, he overstepped at a time and on a topic he was precisely not suppose to over step, so he got sent to vacation. I'm sure he got talks by relevant cadres, maybe self-criticism letter is in the works, but he was always going to be let out of the dog house. Like many systems in China, rule by law is not capricious, but customary.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#336

Post by austhrow743 »

austhrow743 wrote: post #203
ConcreteGidget wrote: post #63

Does anyone have any book recommendations for non-chinese people to understand CCP power structures? I'm completely lost in all of this Jack Ma stuff.

Not a book but a talk given at an internal government seminar by a China policy advisor to the Australian government and recommended by Bill Bishop, one of the bigger names in China related news. Talk given in 2017. https://sinocism.com/p/engineers-of-the-soul-ideology-in

I should have wrote transcript of a talk.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#337

Post by dirtyid »

sebmellen wrote: post #329
blackrock wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah dude. The Chinese are so technologically advanced, that they built an AI robot that looks exactly like the real Jack Ma. The real Jack Ma is getting his kidneys harvested right now, because apparently, that’s what the CCP does to their own citizens (according to western media). /s

They literally do harvest organs from their own citizens. That's not up for dispute. See https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-china-rights-idUS... .

FLG affiliated china tribunal / ETAC is propaganda on par with epochetimes / qanon in terms of credibility. They launder their claims via US NGOs to MSM - turducken of creating misinformation. Prior to current China/FVEY spat, formal government level investigations by AU/US have found FLG sponsored reports to be non-credible.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120205064042/http://www.usemba...

https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/4b6fe16df.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20090620050738/http://www.americ...

At this time, Chinese political structure was _thoroughly_ infiltrated by CIA assets. There's also orthogonal indicators like amount of immuno-suppressant drugs in Chinese market cannot support a vast shadow organ harvesting system like FLG claims. There's a reason no credible institutions without FLG sponsorship have ever endorsed these findings. Including Mike Pompeo, at the urging for US lawmakers no less, who got drunk on FLG/epochtime coolaid. There's a special tier of ridiculous claims when even Pompeo can't spin it against China. FLG organ harvesting / vivisection has always been atrocity porn for useful idiots. It shouldn't be surprising these narratives are finally gaining traction during a period where media landscape is generating loads of them, when epochetimes is the #1 news paper on the appstore.

I say this as someone with several FLG family members who was prosecuted in China, they are delusional cultists. Everything is peaceful and good intensions until they convince themselves not to seek medical advice and dies from completely preventable illnesses.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#338

Post by slumpt_ »

sebmellen wrote: post #80
echelon wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I generally stay out of speculation and fear mongering, but the fact that your comment has been repeatedly - and quickly - downvoted worries me. You should take a look at my post history, then. Any time I express concern over China I'm voted into oblivion. It's the same with Apple, but that I expect. Recently I think someone has taken to downvoting entirely innocuous posts I make from my post history. Sometimes I'l…

Just wanted to say I've seen you around HN and respect your principles on this front. Would love to get in touch, contact info is in my profile or I can send you a message if your profile Gmail is accurate.

Yep. Same.

Tired of posts like that being flagged, and then derided by the mods here as problematic for highlighting plain realities.

We cannot bend to the misinformation from China or any corrupt world government.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#339

Post by bane »

emptysongglass wrote: post #333
bane wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese government is highly structured and in general features most of the things one might expect in a modern nation-state (an executive, a legislature, a court system, etc.) The exception, and what makes it hard to understand for outsiders, is that one of the political parties (Chinese Communist Party) is also an extra, supervisory, branch of government and sits on-top of and permeates all the regular bureaucr…

Where did you get this knowledge? I suspect from books and if so I'd like to know which ones, please.

I've always been kind of interested in why autocratic regimes or dictators engage in seemingly unnecessary benevolent or constructive activities. At some point I decided to better understand how the Chinese government functions since for a long time it's been both autocratic and surprisingly benevolent in certain areas. So basically some combination of youtube, wikipedia and a few other places till I more or less came to a high-level understanding.

There are also some English language Chinese government produced youtube videos that also do a pretty good job at giving basic civics lessons on how their government works if you can look past all the self-congratulations. It's definitely "complicated" and is not just Xi Jinping barking his every desire and whim as it tends to get reduced to.

For example: https://youtu.be/Qu4QTxl9GVw

There are plenty of others like: https://youtu.be/fgor9fmA6po

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#340

Post by sebmellen »

dirtyid wrote: post #337
sebmellen wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They literally do harvest organs from their own citizens. That's not up for dispute. See https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-china-rights-idUS... .

FLG affiliated china tribunal / ETAC is propaganda on par with epochetimes / qanon in terms of credibility. They launder their claims via US NGOs to MSM - turducken of creating misinformation. Prior to current China/FVEY spat, formal government level investigations by AU/US have found FLG sponsored reports to be non-credible. https://web.archive.org/web/20120205064042/http://www.usemba... https://www.refworld.org/pdf…

Uh, should they be prosecuted or persecuted for holding cultist views or not seeking medical treatment? I don't think so, maybe you do. If so, we have irreconcilable differences...

Also — I didn't know the Epoch Times was the #1 newspaper in the App Store. I'm definitely not on that side of the political spectrum, if that's your worry. My concerns about China come more from a progressive perspective. That said, I do think the treatment of Falun Gong in China is atrocious, and I have some Falun Gong friends/acquaintances in the Netherlands (perhaps a bias).

Organ harvesting is a real problem in China, whether on a small scale (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55097424) or large scale (read through this article and souces https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_...).

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