Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#331

Post by peterlk » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 4:04 AM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #323

qafy wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see some research on the factors that contribute to this. Work culture? Leadership culture? Rigor in interviewing process? Education? There has to be a reason US tech employees are 5x-10x as "productive". What are we doing differently?

Academic research shows that US multinationals consistently lead in adapting the best corporate management practices of any major country.[1] Germany and Scandinavia come in a distant second, with Southern Europe falling significantly behind. The disparity in IT-intensive industries is particularly large.[2] This is true even when comparing the productivity of workforces within the same market. I.e. European who work…

> Academic research shows that US multinationals consistently lead in adapting the best corporate management practices of any major country.[1]

Your source points to an article about horseshoe crabs... Can you update it? I'd be interested to red about your claim.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#332

Post by arcticbull » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 4:04 AM UTC

Izikiel43 wrote: post #326

arcticbull wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

Canadians are kind in a shit position. Real state is stupidly expensive everywhere where you would like to live (Greater Vancouver, Greater Toronto, Ottawa is getting more expensive), and salaries are not keeping up at all. For example, cost of living in Vancouver and Seattle, disregarding the currency, is more or less the same, however in Vancouver it's like you earn 2k less than Seattle for an entry level Big 4 pos…

Vancouver and the GTA for sure, Ottawa had been relatively affordable - prices in town went up before COVID, but down during. Montreal remains quite affordable. Edmonton and Calgary aren't bad, and Kitchener/Waterloo's pretty reasonable still. I mean, it's clear a lot of that is mainland Chinese money parking, which cities are actively pushing back on.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#333

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 4:04 AM UTC

frombody wrote: post #321

sidlls wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying laborers more does not lead to the kind of inequality we see. "You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money." Very few of even FAANG-level salaries are high enough to put them in the same bucket as the people who wield power through their wealth. Paying the entire field of SWE laborers even 50% more salary is not going to appreciably change the inequality g…

Marginal tax rates are much higher in Europe at lower levels, so in order to pay someone 50% more, you would have to pay them 100% more for them to get a 50% pay increase to make up for the money taken by taxes (the mechanism that prevents wealth inequality)

That's more or less true in the U.S. too, at the rates software engineers make, at least in NY and CA. In my locality a software engineer making $100k will face a 40% marginal tax rate.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#334

Post by mlthoughts2018 » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 4:06 AM UTC

geodel wrote: post #306

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you increase housing stock, there can be more cheap homes for new entrants in the market, meanwhile existing homeowners may still see significant appreciation on their home value, depending on lots of market variables. Wanting affordable home ownership is not contradictory to growth of home asset prices. I also think your argument about income inequality is not right. Achieving income equality by suppressing wages…

> paying below competitive market rates That does not make sense. How is it below competitive if every company in Europe is paying in same range? By definition it is competitive.

The talent they are competing for can work anywhere, and this untethering of geolocation is only increasing. The relevant market of candidates for large European cities is increasingly just a pan-Western talent market, and lower cultural salary norms are really hurting Europe, leading to brain drain and reduction of major tech hubs.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#335

Post by filleduchaos » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 4:08 AM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #303

anoncake wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not answer the question. Why should someone's income depend on their output? Why is that the ethically correct outcome?

>> That does not answer the question. Why should someone's income depend on their output? Why is that the ethically correct outcome? Because anything else is wishful thinking at best and destroys society at worst.

As opposed to the current system, which is...not destroying society?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#336

Post by SilasX » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 4:08 AM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #224

PurpleFoxy wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they don’t because having an average pay in Europe is still preferable to having a high pay in America.

I suspect you don't have any evidence for this claim. Looking at immigration numbers, a far higher percent of Europeans move to America than Americans move to Europe.

A higher percentage of software engineers, though, like the thread was asking?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#337

Post by marsrover » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 4:09 AM UTC

presentation wrote: post #318

ByteJockey wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a pretty great way to provide healthcare, actually. My understanding is that european countries have pretty significant income taxes.

My personal experience moving from CA to Japan is that despite the national taxes being higher than the USA, it pencils out to less than what I was paying in the US because of CA’s high tax rate, and I get a functioning healthcare system to boot.

Are you a developer in Japan? What is that like and what space do you work in? I’ll never be able to move to Japan but it sounds very interesting to me.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#338

Post by oneplane » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 4:10 AM UTC

irrational wrote: post #171

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I graduated with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree with no debt through scholarships and grants. I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. I’ve told them that I will help a bit during their first year. My company matches my retirement savings up to 5%. I save nothing else for retirement. I should have millions of doll…

The irony is that with all your knowledge you can't see that even if that is a universally desirable situation it isn't scalable.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#339

Post by dcolkitt » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 4:12 AM UTC

peterlk wrote: post #331

dcolkitt wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Academic research shows that US multinationals consistently lead in adapting the best corporate management practices of any major country.[1] Germany and Scandinavia come in a distant second, with Southern Europe falling significantly behind. The disparity in IT-intensive industries is particularly large.[2] This is true even when comparing the productivity of workforces within the same market. I.e. European who work…

> Academic research shows that US multinationals consistently lead in adapting the best corporate management practices of any major country.[1] Your source points to an article about horseshoe crabs... Can you update it? I'd be interested to red about your claim.

Whoops. Thanks so much for pointing that out.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#340

Post by oneplane » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 4:15 AM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #281

samtho wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compensation, in a perfect world, should be based on how much value you bring to the company.

You did not answer the question, you just repeated the initial claim.

You seem to be dodging the obvious: the "why" is because a company has no value when you are risk-free and comfortable because it gets nothing from the inputs towards you, only from your outputs. That doesn't mean it is exactly that black-and-white; your input and output are related. Then there is the availability thing; people with skills and experience are not easy to find so you often want to retain them at the company, and compensation is a great motivator.