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California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

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Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#331
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having medicare for all and a social safety net is standard in all European countries and other Global North countries. No disagreements that having a robust social safety net is a necessity, but just want to nit-pick a little here and point out that not all European/Global North countries have "Medicare for all" or single payer systems. Germany has a public-private mix, Netherlands has a purely private universal h…

Yes. I appreciate the nuance you bring. I would reword where I wrote 'medicare' as: 'affordable healthcare', which in it's current form is (as you described) often a mix between private and public mechanisms/institutions.

But that makes all the difference.

Affordable healthcare is what people really want. The current system of government incentives/mandates for employer-provided insurance in the US does that poorly and we're rightly criticized for it.

But there are a dozen plausible alternatives that are all better, and "Medicare for All" isn't even a particularly well thought-out one, because the existing Medicare system is premised on the continued existence of private insurance to do things like establish market prices. It's also the moral equivalent of having healthcare policy done at the level of the EU rather than the individual member states, which tends to invite more corruption and waste since both of those are compounded by scale and deep pockets.

Which is the real problem with the US system as it is. The employer-provided system is largely created and regulated at the level of the whole US, and as a result there are some specific businesses who are making out like bandits under the status quo, and affordable healthcare is inherently inconsistent with those companies continuing to make three point six trillion dollars a year. So they lobby hard against anything that would actually fix it, no matter whose solution you choose.

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Californians would willingly work in 1900s factory conditions with machines eating body parts and people passing out from exhaustion because that's the only work they can get. This kind of completely unregulated employment market that you seem to want is exactly the thing that people fought against for decades for damn good reasons.

There is plenty of unfilled demand for the trades, so I’m skeptical that there is a large pool of labor willing to work those kinds of jobs.

Your statement is factually false. If there were that much pent up demand for the trades, wages would be going up. That is not the case.

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#333
post #2

A special exception for a narrow set of companies with an established history of abhorrent behaviour with requires a 7/8ths vote to overturn/modify and then pretending that this is something the legislature can update. It's hard for me to not feel disappointed with the public on this one.

Bear in mind that, without the 7/8 clause, it would be impossible to legislatively overturn or modify prop 22. It would have required a public referendum to do so. Now, it merely requires a legislative ultra-majority - improbable but more realistic than another public vote. Also, please bear in mind that CA legislature has already exempted wide and arbitrary swathes of industry from AB5, seemingly based on each indus…

You might as well call it impossible, as long as the CA legislature has more than 12.5% Republicans -- which is basically going to be forever. Requiring a referendum would be better.

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their minimum wage is 20% higher to adjust for that. Exactly how much higher it should be is arguable, but it can be worked out. Including waiting time in the equation will force Uber and Lyft to exit California, it is better to try to make gig work viable. This isn't a question about cost, but about business viability. Also waiting time is very abusable. Uber could just force quit your app if there aren't any rides,…

Uber and Lyft claim that they would exit. But I don't see much reason to believe that. And if they did, well, it would be a great opportunity for other companies. The barrier to entry for rideshare is very low; the main reason we have only two options is that they've been burning money trying to establish their monopoly/duopoly position.

And I see no reason why they would stay. The only reason they work is that they used gig drivers being paid per ride instead of using people with a wage. Without that they are just a regular taxi service with no advantage over the competition, meaning they will have to exit and you are left with the taxi services you had before uber/lyft. They have no experience at all managing a fleet of employees driving, that is much harder than maintaining their app.

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should be free to work for whom they please under the terms they want. As a Californian, I am proud of the people for getting this passed.

Many Californians would willingly work in 1900s factory conditions with machines eating body parts and people passing out from exhaustion because that's the only work they can get. This kind of completely unregulated employment market that you seem to want is exactly the thing that people fought against for decades for damn good reasons.

[deleted]

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drivers were forced to watch political ads before they could start working. They were forced to read pro-prop-22 messages before they could start working. Some of these messages warned (some might say threatened ) that the drivers would lose their jobs if Prop 22 passed. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/if_it_looks_like_a_duck,_swim...

Forced to watch an ad != forced to vote a certain way. And again, a threat implies it is done maliciously. You think it would be better if the companies just stayed quiet, and then just out of blue one day said "sorry we're shutting down operations, you're all out of jobs"?

The original commenter said they were coerced into working as campaign volunteers, not coerced to vote.

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not at all convinced this is what drivers want, and I haven’t seen any trustworthy sources indicating that it’s true. Furthermore, as a passenger, I’d rather pay a higher cost and know that the driver who I’m entrusting with my life hasn’t been working 24 hours straight just to feed their children—I’d rather not get friendly with a tree just to save five bucks.

I think you hit on something interesting. No one is enforcing quality or safety really, not any of them, including taxis.

Uber forces drivers offline after working for too many hours a day. Just FYI.

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#338
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repealing laws is much harder than passing new ones (both politically and procedurally). Depending on the law and location, you often need more votes to repeal than to pass.

What? Bills are patches. A patch and its inverse are both patches.

Specifically for California, some ballot measures are harder to change/repeal than to pass in the first place[1].

I don't think Congress can write bills that are harder to repeal, but I know some states can. There are also states that abuse their own constitutions to accomplish the same thing, for example if a supermajority is required to amend the constitution.

1. https://calmatters.org/politics/post-it/2020/10/california-a...

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The barrier to entry for a taxi service, in a sensible jurisdiction, is very low - put a sign on your car and start driving people around. Uber and Lyft became so popular precisely because there are so many insensibly-regulated jurisdictions that made even this start-your-own-taxi-service illegal in order to create artificial scarcity. Highly-regulated medallion taxi services suck - both independent taxis as well as…

And I’d argue the barrier to entry for taxi businesses should be higher. More cars on the road doesn’t help the environment, or speed up anyone’s commute. Allowing Uber to circumvent this is moving our state in the wrong direction. And uber’s experience while better in some ways, is only better at the cost of the environment, and workers rights. If we don’t allow artificial scarcity/restrictions on number of cars on…

When there were higher barriers to entry, with the medallion system, it was awful. How to balance the two?

Re: California Voters Exempt Uber, Lyft, DoorDash from Having to Reclassify Drivers

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a strange way to conceptualize the process. The whole concept of a ballot proposition is to give voters the final say on policy questions - if legislators could easily overturn propositions, what would be the point?

I assumed the idea was to allow popular but divisive issues to be decided upon without attaching the name of specific legislators to the issue.

Both factors are relevant, but the final say thing is pretty characteristic of California. For bond measures, it's actually mandated by the state constitution - once the legislature passes a bill for a new bond program, they have to create a ballot proposition to ask voters for approval.
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