Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm really not interested in constantly being recommended opposite viewpoints to mine. I'd constantly be getting climate denial content. Most conspiracy theories I never look into, but the 5G one made me wonder how stupid can you be. So when they thought they had enough evidence to convince a judge and sued the Dutch government, I opened the evidence they supplied and read through it. I've spent hours and hours tryin…
I wouldn't take 'opposite' too literally in the black and white sense, I mean providing means of a counterweight or 'something in the other direction(s)' of where the algo is leading you to. Especially so for recommendations. Try private mode on Youtube and see if it's easy to reconstruct your recommendations. I remember the basic 'seeds' of mine, but not how it ended up. I just think if content is factionalised ther…
The Social Dilemma
331–340 of 421 posts
Re: The Social Dilemma
#332Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They also change your behavior in somewhat indirect ways with the goal that you continue to engage with their platform more and more How is this different than any other kind of media like TV, magazines, newspapers, etc.? All of them are trying to make their product engaging so that you consume more of their media and more of their ads. Just because those services also charge a subscription fee, doesn't change the…
> So the dynamics have always existed in previous platforms, it's just been ratcheted up to a higher level with social media. I remember a friend saying the "optimization is killing us". The whole economy is getting better at what it does and as it happens there are many side effects. Those with no ethics will manage to harvest the social media technology for their profit and not for society. It applies also to taxes…
So most companies aren't optimizing for a goal of "maximize our pockets AND maximize world happiness AND maximize the value our users get from us" with a proviso to not optimize too hard, so that unknown but desirable values that aren't expressed in the goal function don't get optimized away. No, they just optimize for "maximize our pockets", and do it hard. And when they do it like this, any sense of ethics or dignity is one of the first to fly out of the window.
Similarly, the optimization being "poison to yourself" is not as much a danger of optimization per se - wanting to improve yourself is a useful and noble desire! The problems usually start when you focus on a narrow goal too hard, to the exclusion of everything else in your life.
As for the market and how things are: my belief is that we're in a tipping point where the market, as an optimizer, is getting out of control and needs to be reined in. It's worth remembering that the main force behind market optimization is competition - I'll find a new trick to undercut you, you'll find a new trick to undercut me further, etc. until we reach diminishing returns, and the price of goods/services settles at barely above costs. Here are things I strongly believe to be true (and rather self-evident) about competition:
1) In a competitive environment, once one party figures out a trick that gives them advantage, everyone else has to do the same or risk getting outcompeted.
2) You don't have to compete only on production efficiency - you can also compete on quality (in the direction of getting away with lower quality for the same, or slightly lower, price), on business models, on ethics (any ethical principle you can skirt will open up new avenues for free profit), on advertising, on adherence to laws, etc.
So over the past centuries, the market had a lot of low-hanging fruits to pick. New materials, new processes, economies of scale, innovations in transport - all allowed to provide better goods for less. But now, I believe, we've run out of these easy wins - most competition happens on the grounds of lowering quality, business models (Everything as a Service, DRM, razor-and-blades, etc.), ethics (see e.g. social media companies), advertising (better RoI than making marginally better product), legality (Ubers and AirBnBs of the world running on a "break laws, and use VC money to keep regulators at bay until the market is cornered and competitors are destroyed").
The market is no longer optimizing us for giving us best possible goods at lowest possible price. Instead, it gives us worst sellable crap at highest possible price, by tacking on hidden and indirect costs.
That's why I'm increasingly in favor of regulating some business models out of existence - particularly the ad-subsidized everything, razor-and-blades everything, and "move fast and break laws" ones. The market's role in society is to make our lives better. The market has optimized past that. So the easy and socially destructive tricks need to be cut off, so that the market can return to optimizing for betterment of consumers.
Re: The Social Dilemma
#333Does anyone see a tipping point or an event that could in scale drive people from social media of Facebook, Twitter. By that I don't mean to a competitor.(perhaps a naive question) Also, is there a common denominator among people here who have stopped using social media? I mean, other than self awareness, retrospective ect. which people here generally have more than the average population. What was the "I need to red…
As we have been living with it for a while, the poisoning effects of social media have become more obvious to more people, but if so many are already in social media and public spaces are half dead, it's not easy to escape. Though I actually believe we can use technology to revert this back. We can use technology to get people who is geographically close to interact with other people, in more local networks. It's not about driving people out from X, it's about giving them better spaces. We are not completely unaware of the poisoning, so we just need to offer people better alternatives. And even if local governments have no vision, we can educate them and build spaces on our own, even if the first ones need to be half-digital for the bootstrapping. I was working on something like this, and while I've had to stop for a while both for personal and global pandemic reasons (and the best ideas are still not clear to me and I'm still improving my skills on web development and other areas), I'll keep working on this kind of projects. People likes to be with people if they have a decent place to stay and something to interact around. And everyone has very different preferences, but it's just a matter of working on it.
Re: The Social Dilemma
#334Earlier quoted context omitted.
I work as en external examiner for various CS students, and in my country they do a couple of internships at real companies as part of their degree. At some point around five years ago, or perhaps a little before that, there started being psychology students on some of the courses. A trend that has since grown quite a bit, especially if you happen upon a group project involving mobile gaming. It’s something I would h…
Blimey, that's super interesting. The ad model needs to die IMHO. We need regulation from a super-national level if you ask me. Bitcoin should pay the way for a paid-for internet. Anything to get ads off the web.
Re: The Social Dilemma
#335Social Media platforms are like being famous without any of the good parts. You just get all the shitty parts of living your life with 1000 fake friends(I mean fans) like a hero complex, or an influence complex, or hyper sensitivity to judgement, or addiction to others opinions, or addiction, or suicide, or an inability to communicate with people different than you, or an inability to determine fact from scam, or a p…
I follow Paul Graham on Twitter. I don't think he is my friend (if only because he doesn't know I exist).
Re: The Social Dilemma
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
Intent matters. Intent of 1:1 conversations between people is usually win-win, or at least win-neutral. Advertising beyond the point of informing that a product exists is exploitative; it's intent is very much win-lose. Put another way: if your friend came to you and started manipulating and pressuring you the way ads do, for the reason ads do, they'd very quickly stop being your friend.
I don't think that quiet puts the finger on the distinction. Apple trying to sell me an iPhone claiming it's more secure and more privacy respecting might be true so if buy one it's a win-win if (a) it is true and (b) I actually wanted those features. > Advertising beyond the point of informing that a product exists is exploitative Okay, so, Apple showing silhouettes dancing was exploitative? The should only say "we…
c) you need a phone in the first palce d) you need a USD1200 phone in the first place
Re: The Social Dilemma
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wouldn't take 'opposite' too literally in the black and white sense, I mean providing means of a counterweight or 'something in the other direction(s)' of where the algo is leading you to. Especially so for recommendations. Try private mode on Youtube and see if it's easy to reconstruct your recommendations. I remember the basic 'seeds' of mine, but not how it ended up. I just think if content is factionalised ther…
Can you give an example? Because if flat earther stuff isn't "'something in the other direction(s)' of where the algo is leading you to" when it's leading me to a video about maps (like Mercator view distortion or so), then I don't know what is.
I think in your example that any (say YT) algo would flag flat earth videos as more conspiratorial and less scientific. Even though the content is about the same "thing", there'd be more facets/dimensions to that thing than it simply being the geometry of the Earth, i.e. the profiles of people who watch such things. There's the history of the Earth's geometry, alternative projections, people who have travelled it, etc etc.
Re: The Social Dilemma
#338Earlier quoted context omitted.
Intent matters. Intent of 1:1 conversations between people is usually win-win, or at least win-neutral. Advertising beyond the point of informing that a product exists is exploitative; it's intent is very much win-lose. Put another way: if your friend came to you and started manipulating and pressuring you the way ads do, for the reason ads do, they'd very quickly stop being your friend.
I don't think that quiet puts the finger on the distinction. Apple trying to sell me an iPhone claiming it's more secure and more privacy respecting might be true so if buy one it's a win-win if (a) it is true and (b) I actually wanted those features. > Advertising beyond the point of informing that a product exists is exploitative Okay, so, Apple showing silhouettes dancing was exploitative? The should only say "we…
Sure, it's a win-win if the features match your needs. And a win-win would be Apple making the claim, listing the privacy features of their new iPhone, along with honest arguments why these features protect your privacy better than competition. I absolutely do not mind things like that - it's the socially-useful purpose of advertising: informing people about products and their features, so that individuals can pick the best solution to their problems.
It's only when advertising tries to override individual's agency when I consider them bad. And note that purposefully and covertly overriding someone's decision making capability is a malicious behavior, and very rarely justifiable.
> The should only say "we made a device, it plays music, it's this size, the batteries last this long"?
Would it be bad if they did only that?
> Was the 1984 ad exploitive?
Of course. While it's nothing compared to today's ads, it still tried to sell you a computer by tricking your mind with completely irrelevant references to 1984 and the feelings it evoked. It tried to override your capability for thinking, by sneaking in an emotional payload.
> Is the Ikea add "Time To Leave Home" ad exploitive?
It's a fun comedy sketch, but again: it tries to use an emotional payload to get you into the market for furniture and think of IKEA in particular (and make it a first association in your mind, over competitors).
Look at it from this point of view: imagine you live in a small town, and there are two small-time shops building and selling farming widgets. Would you want them to spend all their energy and innovation capacity one-upping each other in comedy stand-ups on the storefront, or would you prefer them to focus on designing better farming widgets?
Re: The Social Dilemma
#339There is a major point of difference, between online media monopolies and the old railroad, infrastructure and commodity monopolies of old is "What happens if they dissolve." If Toyota fell off the edge of the disc, next year the world has less capacity to produce cars. A lot of capital will need to be obtained, and that will need to be turned into factories over several years before the world's productive capacity i…
Are you sure social networking is not expensive to provide? What makes you think so?
For a bottom-up argument, consider mostly text based media like twitter or whatsapp. If you're involved in similar tech, I think it's quite easy to roughly estimate both the development and infrastructure requirements for something like this. It isn't too different from an email service or another text-centric media. Also (like email) it lends well to a distributed architecture, so may not even need a centralized infrastructure.
Hosting and serving video is costlier. Again, distributed architecture can make this irrelevant, or a much smaller. Even assuming a Facebook clone though, hard costs like video streaming are a small fraction of facebook revenue.
Re: distributed architecture. Remember that this is what the internet/web is fundamentally designed to do. It's not radical, and there are working examples out there that will work at massive scale. The www itself is such an example, but there are also more explicit examples that work more like Facebook does.
For a comparative argument, consider FB or Twitter when they were much (revenue-wise) smaller. Consider minor social networks (like HN). These might have 1/100th of FB or Twitter's usage, but generally operate on orders of magnitude less revenue user-for-user.
Basically, there are enough demonstrative examples to convince me that it is possible, even trivial.
Re: The Social Dilemma
#340Earlier quoted context omitted.
Blimey, that's super interesting. The ad model needs to die IMHO. We need regulation from a super-national level if you ask me. Bitcoin should pay the way for a paid-for internet. Anything to get ads off the web.
I agree with you, but I will mention that Netflix is a paid service but nevertheless it uses similar strategies to keep us hooked.