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How Much Should You Pay Your Engineers to Ensure They Stick Around?

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Re: How Much Should You Pay Your Engineers to Ensure They Stick Around?

#331

Post by scarface74 »

BeetleB wrote: post #297
dlp211 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Engineers do NOT make $500k total comp per year at FAANG companies, most engineers don't make $300k TC/yr at these companies, and those aren't the engineers I'm talking about anyways. These companies are made up mostly of engineers who make between $100k-$250k. That's still not a small amount of money; and I never claimed that these people are poor; just that these salaries don't satisfy their needs and desires…

I don't live in SV. Looking at Mountain View, there are quite a few nice 2000 sq ft houses to rent for about $6500/month. When I compare that to what I'm paying in a cheaper COL area, I can assure you that the difference in pay between me and typical Google compensation, after taxes, more than compensates for this increase in rent. I won't say it's "luxury", but it's still better than most people get around the count…

I pay $2200/month mortgage to live in the burbs of a major southeastern city. - 5 bedroom, 3-1/2 bath, 3100 square feet. It was a brand new build in 2016.

I just went to https://paycheckcity.com and did a gross up calculator. At first I thought you were underestimating how much more I would have to make to make the move worthwhile - with downsizing.

But if we were willing to downsize, I would need to make about $70K - $80K more than the average senior software engineer makes in my area.

I was off. $220K - $240K is about the average range for engineer with 3-5 years of experience in $BigTech so $6500/month is not unreasonable.

Re: How Much Should You Pay Your Engineers to Ensure They Stick Around?

#332

Post by mjayhn »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #174
mjayhn wrote: post #61

There's a style of management I encounter still that is very unsupportive of it's employees. Untrusting, thinking they're always out to leave just to make more money. It's interesting because the engineers I know tend to be pretty altruistic people and I won't say they don't care about money but it's not their leading factor in employment (I definitely know the other spectrum as well so don't think I'm ignoring that)…

Hah. Seems like this is not as uncommon as I thought. My senior had her convention request denied by company while multiple leadership folk were flown over there. She got pissed and paid for her own access/flight. She clearly met a lot of people there. Maybe that is what management is most scared of. She already almost left once.

It's very common if you're not at some big FAANG or group that is in all the partner groups (CNCF, etc) and pays to get tickets every year.

I do this a lot for a few foss projects I contribute to because even though I'm always hired as the SME for my niche leadership will only give me tickets/flights to conferences if they have extras and none of their drinking buddies want to go. Typically what happens is I'll start at a company, ask about going to $mybigcon when a training budget is brought up, that training budget is always slashed, not real or goes somewhere else then I'll never ask again and I'll find my own way to get tickets (from conf partners, etc).

The funny thing, when I have to do this not only am I really bothered that my company wouldn't spend the $1000 ($200 plane, $800 ticket) but I go out of my way to not focus on ANYTHING that will benefit my company but instead I have a good time and learn things I'm interested in and mingle with every other company/partner I can.

I've actually had companies expect me to get tickets myself from the projects or from gold partners that I know. I don't have that much clout by any means and even asking partners for tickets makes me feel terrible because they're limited too.

Re: How Much Should You Pay Your Engineers to Ensure They Stick Around?

#333

Post by _57jb »

scarface74 wrote: post #327
_57jb wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it crazy this is what it all boils down to...looking over our 30 some odd years grinding away and we are looking to stay safe. You can live your dream or help someone else build theirs.

What makes you think some people’s dream might not be to work from 9-5 go home to their spouse, 2.5 kids, their house in the burbs and get money to put into their account every two weeks? Save consistently and retire?

I think you are using satire to make a point although you may be serious.

To play devils advocate to my own point:

There are some jobs that between those hours of 9-5 it is a dream come true. I ran an R&D team, we could buy any technology, kick off any project, success wasn't "Making a unicorn" but merely understanding something and providing guidance/insight to our executives.

It went well for several years...the party ended after leadership changed and they had new opinions on what R&D meant.

It was my dream and theirs for a period of time...then it was no longer my dream, just theirs.

I left to find my dream....I now make 5x as much doing something I love.

Re: How Much Should You Pay Your Engineers to Ensure They Stick Around?

#334

Post by perl4ever »

bradlys wrote: post #200
tidepod12 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they do. This comes up every time compensation gets mentioned on HN. Engineers claim that "I only make $500k/yr at Google and I'm poor because SF prices :(" which is just bullshit. In a previous thread, someone mentioned that they make $300k/yr in SF, and even after paying for housing in a nice area and food/utility expenses, they had over $11,000 per month left over in discretionary income. That is insane. Unle…

I’d be curious to know where that person got such cheap housing. $300k/yr translates to $15k/month take home. Houses are like $10k/month if you’re looking to own. Even if you rent, it’s still close to $5-6k/month if you want a decent neighborhood. I’m not even talking about nice houses btw. Maybe they rent an apartment and share the rent. That’s the only way I see them coming up with those numbers. $300k/year isn’t e…

I don't have firsthand experience, but craigslist seems to have what look like normal apartments to me in the bay area for around $2800/month. Something like 600 apartments below that if I filter by off street parking and washer/dryer in the apt, which is my idea of a nice place. Looking for ads that double that brings up furnished apartments and luxury high rises with "24 hour concierges".

My reference point would be, for a young single person in a "normal" area of the country, $55K and $1250/month rent means you have $2K/month left over. A lot of people don't make this much.

To have the same amount left over after taxes and rent of $2800/month, it appears you'd need to make about $78K. So anything above $80K seems on the face of it to be livable at least for one person.

By the way, I noticed that total income taxes seem to actually be lower than in upstate NY.

Re: How Much Should You Pay Your Engineers to Ensure They Stick Around?

#335

Post by tj0 »

drivebycomment wrote: post #305
tj0 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was exactly why I left my previous position. Place was great to work, brilliant team, laid back culture. But refusing to give me an annual raise, on top of paying me below market value (and below my peers) for my experience and skill set was precisely what triggered my departure a month later for a nearly 90% raise. Sacrificed other things, but at the end of the day, "thank you's", "good jobs", and a kegerator d…

> paying me below market value (and below my peers) for my experience and skill set was precisely what triggered my departure a month later for a nearly 90% raise. I'm curious - how did you end up accepting that job in the first place that was underpaying by nearly 100% ?

They offered me nearly the same kind of raise over the position I was in before it.

The first company I worked for paid me $36k/yr. Given I don't have a degree, and it was the first offer I received (was my break-into-the-industry offer), I took it. After nearly two years, I was still below $40k/yr. Couldn't afford to rent a two bedroom apartment by myself, let alone support a then pregnant girlfriend.

That's when the next company offered right below market value, but when I started with them, it seemed like a fair offer given I had to learn new frameworks, containerization, etc. After a year, and the value I'd added to the company, I assumed I'd receive a raise.

Low and behold, it didn't happen, so like the previous position, I found somewhere offering a median salary for my region.

Still not where I should be with all the responsibilities and skills I have now, but at least the financial stress isn't nearly as bad as it used to be. Plus, I'm secure in my position, so that's helpful.

Re: How Much Should You Pay Your Engineers to Ensure They Stick Around?

#336

Post by scarface74 »

_57jb wrote: post #333
scarface74 wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think some people’s dream might not be to work from 9-5 go home to their spouse, 2.5 kids, their house in the burbs and get money to put into their account every two weeks? Save consistently and retire?

I think you are using satire to make a point although you may be serious. To play devils advocate to my own point: There are some jobs that between those hours of 9-5 it is a dream come true. I ran an R&D team, we could buy any technology, kick off any project, success wasn't "Making a unicorn" but merely understanding something and providing guidance/insight to our executives. It went well for several years...the pa…

I’m very serious. It has never been my desire to start my own business. I go home and sleep well at night not worrying about customers, investors, funding.

It went well for several years...the party ended after leadership changed and they had new opinions on what R&D meant. It was my dream and theirs for a period of time...then it was no longer my dream, just theirs.

And when that happens, I email recruiters and get another job usually paying more within a few weeks. The shortest time from looking for a job to having an offer is 4 days. The longest is about 7 weeks. But I only applied for one job. The process just takes a while for $BigTech.

Which brings up an even better example. The company I work for announced an across the board pay cut because our customers were losing money because of Covid. The company is having to cut prices, come up with payment arrangements, get money from the government, etc. I bet the owners aren’t sleeping well at night.

The next day after they announced the pay cut, a recruiter from $BigTech reached out to me about a remote role. I applied for the job, got it, with a 50% pay bump and I still sleep well.

I left to find my dream....I now make 5x as much doing something I love.

Survivorship bias. Statistically how will most software developers make more money over a lifetime - starting their own company or in the immortal words of r/cscareerquestions, “learn leetCode and work for a FAANG”?[1] Or depending on where you are living, just bring your run of the mill “Enterprise Developer” in any major city in the US that’s not on the west coast.

[1] Not that I went down that road to “work for a FAANG”. I took another route that pays as well to get into $BigTech.

Re: How Much Should You Pay Your Engineers to Ensure They Stick Around?

#337

Post by _57jb »

pmiller2 wrote: post #303
_57jb wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it crazy this is what it all boils down to...looking over our 30 some odd years grinding away and we are looking to stay safe. You can live your dream or help someone else build theirs.

Or, we could have an actual social safety net where if you lose your job and can't find one for a few months, you don't lose your health insurance, your home, and your ability to eat. Most people do not have sufficient savings to cover an extended job search, UI simply doesn't cut it, COBRA is prohibitively expensive, and Medicaid only kicks in at absurdly low income levels.

Yeah...I mean I think money is genuinely this necessary evil we've built a society around and I am constantly questioning it.

How interesting that we can build a system that can fluctuate enough to upend lives both good and bad. You become so focused on it, it is seen as this brass ring. Once you have it, you question everything.

I realize this is a bit philosophical and idealistic. You appear to have a similar viewpoint as mine in terms of a society that supports the whole, I just wonder if you can do that effectively when you have a source of power so specific like money.

There are some very revolutionary thinkers/philosophers/minds that were somewhat detached from money (in that they came from such wealth they didn't have to care or they chose a life detached from it) Plato, Aristotle, Wittgenstein...many more. I'm curious if there is a connection or merely just a representation of the population.

This is something I've rolled in my head for a while but first time I've said it out loud so a lot of people are now coming to my mind now that were not wealthy.

I cannot necessarily see it going away but perhaps more of a direct representation of what it means...our time/energy.

Re: How Much Should You Pay Your Engineers to Ensure They Stick Around?

#338

Post by _57jb »

scarface74 wrote: post #336
_57jb wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are using satire to make a point although you may be serious. To play devils advocate to my own point: There are some jobs that between those hours of 9-5 it is a dream come true. I ran an R&D team, we could buy any technology, kick off any project, success wasn't "Making a unicorn" but merely understanding something and providing guidance/insight to our executives. It went well for several years...the pa…

I’m very serious. It has never been my desire to start my own business. I go home and sleep well at night not worrying about customers, investors, funding. It went well for several years...the party ended after leadership changed and they had new opinions on what R&D meant. It was my dream and theirs for a period of time...then it was no longer my dream, just theirs. And when that happens, I email recruiters and get…

Yeah, I actually was going a slightly different route.

I got into generating passive income. I am now in a position where I can maintain a lifestyle I enjoy and homeschool my small children.

I could pay for the best schools and keep track but I love education...I love passing that on. If I built a company it would be around that. I would not like the money struggles that you talk about so I would probably aim for something non/not for profit assuming it would lessen that burden.

I don't know that I care so much about money but before when I struggled, it was my singular focus.

It may seem like a silly question but if you had all the money in the world would you show up to work? If the answer is yes I hope you have that job for a lifetime, if the answer is no I hope you have all the money you need for a lifetime.

Edit: As a side note...perhaps because of the R&D nature of my previous role I had an advantage in the low barrier to entry of this. I saw a lot of acquisitions. Companies that were startups, bought, cannibalized, and then repurposed as a product. Sometimes these products internally thought up by us or other LoB's. They were all rough, prototypical in nature... Realizing that millions was "exploratory money" whether internally developed or purchased to have a product that looks and feels like something became a realization that you can profit on ideas...not full blown products bulletproof and cemented into history.

There are many that are not in it to make a legacy, just to get the thing airborne and sell.

The first time I saw a group spin up ten webpages of fake products to market test a brainstorming session was a lightbulb on what is happening under the surface in many areas.

Re: How Much Should You Pay Your Engineers to Ensure They Stick Around?

#339

Post by kbenson »

my_username_is_ wrote: post #318
kbenson wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~3% a year is a cost of living increase. If anyone gets 3% for a promotion they could ask where that number came from. If they recently got a 3% bump that means the promotion put them ahead by ~12 months of work at the company in the prior position. Does that make sense? If they haven't gotten a raise for close to a year, it means the promotion didn't really come with a pay bump at all if that's what they normally ge…

I've only ever had it referred to as an annual merit increase, but it's definitely more aligned with the national cost of living. Regardless of what it's called though, the question remains. Why does your value to other companies increase faster than your value to your own company? Presumably you're learning more about your company's business and your specific domain problems, which should make you more valuable to y…

> Why does your value to other companies increase faster than your value to your own company?

I think there's a lot that goes into this, which also shows how complex the topic is.

- There's your actual value and your perceived value

- When you're there and filling a niche, there may not really be a lack for a specific skill set which (might exist if you left) which there might be at the other company.

- Companies aren't always good and managing their desire to pay the least amount possible to retain an employee (natural, to keep costs down) with the employees willingness to leave, if they even have any inkling of the latter.

- An employees willingness to leave can have many inputs, some of them nothing to do with work, so it's hard to judge (e.g. lack of ability to work from home some days can go from a small annoyance to a reason to look for alternate employment depending on what else is going on in their life).

etc.

As to whether your skill should always be increased to the company you're at, I think that's generally true, but may not be in the specific instance. People get complacent, and sometimes the work environment can cause a excellent employee to perform in a mediocre manner, and vice versa.

Re: How Much Should You Pay Your Engineers to Ensure They Stick Around?

#340

Post by _57jb »

ed312 wrote: post #69
vbtemp wrote: post #62

I just want a straight answer from someone who knows more than me. How come every time I switch jobs I get a 30-40% raise, but at any one company I never get more than a 1-3% raise each year, no matter the growth of productivity and responsibility. There's obviously some kind of prisoner's dilemma-like iterated game that reaches that Nash equilibrium, and I'm trying to figure out what it is exactly. I would have love…

I can tell you as a manager the salary bands are generally set by HR for the whole company. I was told point blank at a previous employer that we payed the 70th percentile. I asked how they knew what that was - apparently there are companies that aggregate this data (legally?) and sell it back to HR orgs for $xx,xxx+ a year. HR for some reason wouldn't deviate from this band for top talent (discrimination maybe?)

I worked at a large insurance company in a previous life, this was their stance as well.

They will deviate if the field is hot enough and it translates to money for them. They were paying FAANG money to AI/Data Science fresh out of college.

The McKinseys/Gartners/etc of the world talk about the coming advantage...exec hears it and they become more open to these "critical sectors"

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