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Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

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Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#331

Post by kempbellt »

Finnucane wrote: post #152
DenisM wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like a music festival campground Every generation needs a Woodstock. Burning man is not real enough.

>Every generation needs a Woodstock A massively failed capitalist project that leaves behind an enormous mess?

Yes, actually.

The ability for people to make a mess on occasion, for whatever reason, is an essential freedom to be cherished and fought for.

Every generation needs an act of rebellion. It's a sort of fundamental law of nature, as a right of passage in a way.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#332

Post by Sylamore »

Sargos wrote: post #215
Sylamore wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police are civilians and should be treated as such, it shouldn't be any more legal for them to do something any other civilian would face substantial legal penalties for without facing the same penalties.

So normal citizens should be able to put cuffs on other citizens? Put them into a car and drive off?

In many states, they already can for felonies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest#United_Stat...

What they lack is qualified immunity, so it's pretty rare because the risk of being wrong is too great. Which seems to be a valuable take away.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#333

Post by remarkEon »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #291
xenocyon wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct that Seattle has a tremendous amount of homelessness. The rest of your comment doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Sweeps - which you seem to be advocating - do nothing to solve the problem; meanwhile you ironically criticize tent cities in residential neighborhoods without seeming to understand that a tent city is a residential neighborhood and it is precisely the periodic shutdowns and relocations of…

I'm not advocating for anything. I'm just offering an observation as someone that lived there for a decade and loves the area, but now has somewhat of an outsider perspective. Seattle has very deep, fundamental problems that it has no idea how to solve. Homeless tent cities scattered throughout the county are not normal in nearly any other American city. Especially not the ones as wealthy as Seattle. And maybe that i…

Just wanted to say I agree with you. I first came to Seattle in 2011, and left the area in 2015 (lived in Tacoma for 2 years in that time as well), returned in 2018. I'm originally from the Midwest and I just don't understand why people here seem to look at the San Francisco checklist of "how to make your city unlivable" and decided to go step by step.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#334

Post by remarkEon »

Animats wrote: post #247

They need a political win on something in the next few days. Otherwise this thing fizzles out, is crushed, or turns into a joke like the 2016 bird sanctuary occupation. Some of Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" apply. ⬤ "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag." ⬤ "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative." That's the problem with "defund the police". "We'd all love to see the plan", as…

>Camden NJ did do this. They fired their entire police department and started over.

Except that's not really what happened. They fired the existing police force at the time but most were hired back (155 of the 220 that reapplied), and then they expanded to a complement of 401 officers (it was 370 before). Then they built a gigantic surveillance apparatus that tracks pretty much everything. So, more police, more surveillance.

Homicides have apparently declined 63% since they did this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_County_Police_Departmen...

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#335

Post by remarkEon »

hellomyguys wrote: post #262
remarkEon wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there exists nuance to the "defund the police" stance (though a lot less on the whole "abolish" the police position). My point is that many people have essentially been gaslit into thinking this has widespread support. It does not, regardless of whatever nuance exists. From your article: >For example, 39% of respondents supported proposals “to completely dismantle police departments and give more financial suppo…

If you told me this stat a month ago, I would never believe it. 39% is a shocking amount and I can only imagine it is going to increase. You're right that we would still need to train a new organization to deal with violent events. But you're also ignoring the upside of not having a cop with a gun issuing speeding tickets, or dealing with someone experiencing mental health issues, or other things that could be better…

>give more financial support to address homelessness, mental health, and domestic violence.

is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this poll, which should be obvious. I'm not ignoring anything. Cops respond to a variety of calls, all the time ... because there simply are not enough of them to have this "specialized" force you think would solve all of these problems. The grand irony of all of this is that the defunding of the police departments in this country will make the kinds of reforms you are talking about impossible.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#336

Post by tathougies »

deathgrips wrote: post #185
nikkwong wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm personally very worried about this as someone who is heavily invested in the real estate market here. The issue of how to deal with the rapid growth in the city is multifaceted and it's difficult to pitch a stance on. At the very least, you could easily make an argument that a rising tide does not lift all boats; i.e. many people are personally not benefiting much from the tech-boom in the area. On the other…

>Should people really be entitled to live in an expensive city that they cannot afford? Cities like Manhattan or SF have sort of taken a stance on that and it favors the prosperous. I find it eerie that you're excluding from the equation the tens of thousands of homeless people in those cities. The right question is "to what lengths should we go to give people the ability to live with a roof over their heads?" The ba…

Seattle homeless stats show that those who are simply homeless (I.e., don't have enough money to afford rent) are found shelter. The 'unsheltered' -- those who, despite social programs -- still have no shelter, are almost universally affected by problems not caused by landlord/tenant law.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#337

Post by tathougies »

deathgrips wrote: post #283
nikkwong wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homelessness is a complex problem which I believe namely stems from psychological and substance abuse disorders. I think there is likely a relationship between the amount of income inequality in a society and the amount of homelessness. I do believe that we should support the homeless populations of our cities; but if you're familiar with Seattle's homelessness problems in particular, you'll know that the city has es…

>Homelessness is a complex problem which I believe namely stems from psychological and substance abuse disorders I think this is about as useful as saying "homelessness is caused by loitering". We're confusing cause and effect. Try living on the streets for a few years where people treat you worse than shit without developing some mental illness or abusing drugs to deal with the stress and loneliness. If you think th…

> highest rate of homelessness in America?

Please do not spread lies. SF does not have the highest homelessness rate in America. Eugene Oregon has the most homeless: https://www.security.org/resources/homeless-statistics/ , followed by LA and NY.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#338

Post by alasdair_ »

dag11 wrote: post #199
conroy wrote: post #84

A friend lives in Seattle and texted me today about his visit last night: > I was there last night and it's such a cool pseudo utopian place > The media coverage of it is WILD > People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground > There are speakers, musicians, art walls. I took a group pic for a bunch of black guys las…

> The media coverage of it is WILD Yep. I live three blocks south of CHAZ and it's so overblown. Conservative family from the east-coast have told me they're very worried for me, and I check fox news and see images from "Seattle" of parking lots of cars on fire. Those images were from Minneapolis last month, not even from Seattle. As another nearby commenter said, last week when the police were here gassing us, throw…

I live less than half an hour’s journey away but seemingly most of the people on my neighborhood facebook pages believe Fox News’ reporting more than their own neighbors photographs and videos. They refuse to even drive over there to see what is going on, so certain they are that they are right.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#339

Post by alasdair_ »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #257
dag11 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The media coverage of it is WILD Yep. I live three blocks south of CHAZ and it's so overblown. Conservative family from the east-coast have told me they're very worried for me, and I check fox news and see images from "Seattle" of parking lots of cars on fire. Those images were from Minneapolis last month, not even from Seattle. As another nearby commenter said, last week when the police were here gassing us, throw…

On the right, I am seeing: - It's called Antifastan - Warlord Raz is prone to violent outbursts, and is an AirBnb Superhost. - There are open carries with automatic rifles. They get the most respect. - Laughing out loud at an attempt to create a vegetable garden. Didn't appear promising. - Laughing harder at a cry for 'please send vegan meats and soy products, the homeless took all the food!' My thinking is, the trut…

> either side of the mainstream media

The “mainstream media” has exactly one side: whatever generates the most money.

Thus: wall to wall coverage of a couple of peaceful blocks without police and almost no mention of the $500 Billion that their advertisers recently looted from the American public.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#340

Post by alasdair_ »

downerending wrote: post #213
conroy wrote: post #84

A friend lives in Seattle and texted me today about his visit last night: > I was there last night and it's such a cool pseudo utopian place > The media coverage of it is WILD > People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground > There are speakers, musicians, art walls. I took a group pic for a bunch of black guys las…

Not sure anyone is "convinced", but yes, there are stories of uncertain believeability suggesting that there are people with guns at the "border" demanding ID to enter. Sounds dubious. Also, that the Antifas are asking for protection money from businesses within the zone. Again, dubious. But, if either of those things are happening, I'm pretty okay with putting an end to them, by whatever means necessary. Threatening…

Notice how none of these stories are ever “this happened to me” from someone credible who provably lives there? It’s always “a friend said...”
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