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Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive

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Re: Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive

#331

Post by jawns »

zucker42 wrote: post #236
jawns wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's affecting sales of my book, but that's beside the point. Copyright is about more than sales. It's about the author having the right to determine who gets to distribute and profit from their creative works. That's why you'll hear about authors and their estates turning down seemingly lucrative deals, such as movie adaptations. If the copyright holder doesn't want their work to be used in that way, t…

> Copyright is about more than sales. It's about the author having the right to determine who gets to distribute and profit from their creative works. This is not sound justification for the existence of copyright. You're asserting that an author is deserved a special personal benefit even if that benefit hurts the general public . What other worker is afforded similar protection? In the case of the Internet Archive,…

> even if that benefit hurts the general public

Only to the extent that the general public doesn't, for some period of time, get to do whatever they want with a creative work that someone else invested time, effort (and in some cases talent) to make. The general public is no worse off during the copyright term than if the copyright holder had never created the work.

> What other worker is afforded similar protection?

Anyone who owns a patent or a trademark, or really any intellectual property at all.

> In the case of the Internet Archive, they've taken a book you've already made money on, and are lending it to one person at a time.

What you are describing is called Controlled Digital Lending https://controlleddigitallending.org. Under this system of lending, libraries treat digital copies as if they are physical copies -- meaning they can only be lent out to one person at a time. If you purchase or acquire 5 physical books and then digitize them, then under CDL you can lend out 5 digital copies at a time.

But that is NOT what the Internet Archive is doing under its emergency library program. Instead, it is acquiring a single copy of a book and then lending it out simultaneously to an unlimited number of users. It would be as if a public library purchased one copy of a physical book and then made unlimited photocopies of the book and lent those photocopies out simultaneously.

Re: Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive

#332

Post by mthoms »

jimbob45 wrote: post #311
chongli wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just spent about 15 minutes searching all sorts of US government websites including the Library of Congress. I could not find any mention of the Internet Archive anywhere. Do you have a specific source that verifies that IA is a library?

No I just meant that the government sets the standard for what qualifies as a library. I'd have to take a trip to whichever city IA is based out of and check the public records to determine whether or not they've filed for library status.

"Filed for library status"? That is not a thing, don't make stuff up.

Libraries appear to be regulated at the state level not municipal. https://www.imls.gov/assets/1/News/PublicLibraryStructureOrg...

Re: Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive

#333

Post by tingletech »

dntbnmpls wrote: post #320

So what? If you offered a reason for why this particular article was better, then your comment would have added value. Otherwise it seems like a poorly paid social media worker at the nytimes spamming here.

If I were an agent for the NYT, why would I have submitted the press release vs. simply submitting the NYT article? Is there some SEO trick there?

I saw the NYT piece after I posted the press release.

A press release from a plaintiff announcing a lawsuit is, by its nature, one sided.

The NYT coverage is more balanced, including Brewster's response for example.

Based on how quick the press release jumped to the front page, I figured folks would be interested in the broader coverage.

Rather than making another submission, I added a note to this submission.

I thought the difference between a press release and news article was well known and did not need stating. I guess I assumed a level of information literacy that was not present in all readers, and should have said "and here is some popular reporting that gives a broader perspective than the press release I just posted above".

Based on the upvotes of my additional comment, I can only assume it added value for some readers.

Re: Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive

#334

Post by munk-a »

m4rtink wrote: post #204
boplicity wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That exists in the form of "vanity" publishers and "hybrid" publishers, which tend to rip off their clients, instead of providing actual value. In addition, people tend to vastly underestimate the difficulty of building a successful marketing campaign to actually sell books, in addition to the extreme difficulty of actually building relationships with distributors. Successfully selling a book is not that different th…

I wonder how many times a book will not sell without a marketing campaign simply because it is not good. It seems to me that in a world of electronic communication & social media, it should be possible for a good book to become widely known & demanded by simply being good & the news about it spreading. Individual book sellers still could do some marketing simply to increase sales once such a good book shows up.

Extremely frequently - I love to bash marketing at every given opportunity but books are tough - if I hand you a book you have no way to do a surface evaluation without leaning on associated knowledge - is it by an author you know - is it part of a series you like[1]. If not, then you've got the dust cover summary to go on and those will often be overwhelmingly positive even if it isn't warranted.

A friend of mine is an independent author who self-markets their books and they've learned over years where money will pay itself back and where you're throwing it into a hole - but not investing in promotion at all just means you'll be relegated to obscurity.

When I'm shopping for a broom I have some expectations - I've really grown to appreciate the rubber headed brooms over bristly ones and I am pretty tall so length is a decent consideration... When I'm shopping for a book, what do I have to go on? Cover art and the summary, probably... and those are hardly helpful.

1. Specifically I'm thinking of multi-author series like SW:EU or Dragonlance.

Re: Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive

#335

Post by mcguire »

Mindwipe wrote: post #323
mcguire wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, libraries buy the books, etc., they lend, or pay for license agreements for digital media.

UK libraries buy the books and pay additionally for every lend, as it should be.

"...as it should be."

Hey, don't try to convince me. I spend most of the hundreds of dollars I pay for books every year at used book stores and things like estate sales.

I am literally Satan.

Re: Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive

#336

Post by Nemo_bis »

Zonulet wrote: post #211
mcguire wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How valuable? 85-90% of the cover price for digital copies (35-40% for physical)?

The percentages aren't particularly relevant to me, because I live off advances, not royalties. Sales are still meaningful, because they help determine what advance I get next time, but in my case the idea that I'm getting a cut of each one is basically just symbolic – I've already been paid. Just one of many reasons I could never have had the same career without my "legacy" publisher. (I should note that your percen…

Thanks for joining the discussion. Do you think the authors' association figure, that about 3 % of publishers' revenue goes to authors, is correct? https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jun/27/publishers-pay...

Re: Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive

#337

Post by Nemo_bis »

Zonulet wrote: post #252
zucker42 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Copyright is about more than sales. It's about the author having the right to determine who gets to distribute and profit from their creative works. This is not sound justification for the existence of copyright. You're asserting that an author is deserved a special personal benefit even if that benefit hurts the general public . What other worker is afforded similar protection? In the case of the Internet Archive,…

Why are you making the assumption that giving our books away for free doesn't affect our sales?

I don't "assume" it, but do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Re: Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive

#338

Post by Nemo_bis »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #321
Zonulet wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your maths is off. A literary novel is a success if it sells 10,000 copies in hardback. I'm pretty sure that doesn't entail getting the book in front of a hundred million people.

no, the conversion funnel is "people see ad -> people click on ad/notice book -> people buy book". Getting the advert in front of 100mm people to sell 10K copies seems reasonable.

Indeed, given a rather typical conversion rate of 2 % you need a lot of people at the beginning to get thousands of sales. https://www.wordstream.com/blog/ws/2014/03/17/what-is-a-good...

Re: Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive

#339

Post by 0_gravitas »

SpelingBeeChamp wrote: post #309
EvanAnderson wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was being hyperbolic in that question, to be sure. It's probably better asked as: When will the publishing industry finally accept that it exists in a world where counting copies made doesn't work as a business model anymore? Technology isn't going away. The business models will have to change. Some businesses will fail. Some creators will have tragic outcomes. Some works will never be created. Entire classes of wo…

"I also have deep moral concerns with the idea that a creator should somehow be entitled to be paid again and again for work done once." You would do away with the ability of developers to license their software?

Sounds great to me

Re: Publishers File Suit Against Internet Archive

#340

Post by Nemo_bis »

Zonulet wrote: post #238
mantap wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do authors have rights to be compensated? If I go to a library and take out a book, the author doesn't get compensated again. The book may be read by hundreds of people but it was only paid for once. If I lend a book I own to a friend, the author doesn't get compensated again. It's my book, not the authors, and I can let anybody I want read it. There has never been an expectation that authors get compensated for each…

Here in the UK, if you go to a library and take out a book, the author does get compensated, it's called the Public Lending Right. Apparently in Denmark they've had it since 1941 so I don't think it took ebooks to make it technologically possible.

In USA, the system publishers love so much means that the libraries may go bankrupt when there is an increase in lending. Sure, in the short term it might sound profitable. https://www.wbur.org/artery/2020/03/20/demand-e-books-rises-... http://www.ala.org/news/press-releases/2020/05/business-gove...

The Danish system works only because the state has agreed to foot the bill for whatever amount of money gets transferred to publishers.

> In Denmark, library book loans fell from 34 million in 2000 to around 28 million in 2014. 38 E-lending has increased rapidly in Denmark since the launch of its eReolen national public library e-lending platform in 2011, but e-lending still only represented just over 2% of all book loans in 2014.39 Interestingly, eReolen has seen a surprising expansion in the number electronically loaned audiobooks, which are now outperforming e-books in the eReolen’s monthly loan statistics.

https://www.statewatch.org/news/2017/dec/ep-study-e-lending.... https://www.kirjastot.fi/sites/default/files/content/Rapport...

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