Live data from Hacker News

China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

theguardian.com

331–340 of 385 posts

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that Daily Mail should not be used as source in informed contexts, however the thebulletin.org link has very well informed comments (at least).

Can anybody explain the downvotes? Daily Mail is a well-known unreliable source, pretty much a tabloid. The article mentioned it poor, as a matter of fact.

I agree with you people are linking to garbage sources pushing propaganda, misinformation or muddled garbage.

What a lot of people are trying to do is execute the classic psychological trick; make the problem go away by finding someone safe to blame.

Won't work for SARS-COV2. It doesn't care.

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This paper is only about engineering a virus using a common backbone virus as a starting point. That does not mean the virus could not be derived within a lab using recombination methods in other animals and sourcing the starting novel virus from bats. In fact, this type of research was the exact research being done at the Wuhan Virology lab.

> the exact research being done at the Wuhan Virology lab I would like to see the exact research they tried to do there. Navigating through their published research list, I couldn't locate any, but I am not an expert: http://www.whiov.cas.cn/kycg_105248/lwqk/index.html

https://www.nature.com/news/engineered-bat-virus-stirs-debat...

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#333

Hi guys, As a Chinese living in US. Please be mindful that a lot of people do not distinguish China the government, and the Chinese people, living in or outside of China mainland. This type of news, are of course worth discussion. But meanwhile, please refrain from politicizing beyond the facts. Think about not letting what a few political figures have started, i.e., politicizing the event without considering the imp…

[deleted]

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#334
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of bats at some of those markets if this video is true. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V7fyjaFOwQ

That doesn't look like the seafood market in Wuhan.

FYI: A wet market isn't necessarily seafood only.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_market

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't buy the escaped/released from a lab theories espoused here and on Facebook and the like. Apparently the mutations within the SARS-COV-2 found in humans compared to the bat virus are purely random and hence the thing is not or very unlikely genetically engineered. Only the conspiracy theorists claim it was an "engineered bio-weapon". The most likely explanation is that it just escaped involuntarily from the…

- the horseshoe bats that most likely hosted the virus weren't even sold on the wuhan wet market, according to several eye witnesses - there are no known horseshoe bat colonies in a 900km diameter around wuhan If you have sources for these, you will have convinced me that it's more likely that it originated from the lab than the market.

Its from a preprint by two Chinese researchers, that has since been deleted from researchgate, which is why I couldn't find it initially:

https://web.archive.org/web/20200214144447/https:/www.resear...

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very valid clarification on what I will just name "lab theories". There is a huge differentiation in: 'purposely bio-engineered and intentionally-released' theories, vs. 'someone collected bats in the wild for research, brought them to the Wuhan lab, and there was an accidental pathogen escape during the research.' The former is entirely dramatic, while the latter is neither dramatic, unreasonable, illogical,…

It's a shame that China's covering something up, which will only fuel the most outlandish theories.

There's little evidence to support the cover-up charge

https://old.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/fnvvh8/some_th...

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#337
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very valid clarification on what I will just name "lab theories". There is a huge differentiation in: 'purposely bio-engineered and intentionally-released' theories, vs. 'someone collected bats in the wild for research, brought them to the Wuhan lab, and there was an accidental pathogen escape during the research.' The former is entirely dramatic, while the latter is neither dramatic, unreasonable, illogical,…

Neither extreme seems likely. We know that the lab was adding functionality to bat coronaviruses, making them able to infect human cells. This can be done without gene editing technology. We've been doing that in the opposite direction for decades, passing viruses through non-human cells in order to make weakened ones for live-virus vaccines. To make a virus worse for humans, simply pass it through human cells. This…

>We know that the lab was adding functionality to bat coronaviruses, making them able to infect human cells.

Source?

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#338

The the American leadership constantly calling it by the region name you can understand why an authoritarian regime would want to control discussion of the origins by experts. The risk is of their research being weaponized by said demagogues.

I was under the impression that they started intentionally calling it the Wuhan virus only after the Chinese government started making propaganda that the virus came form aboard.

My understanding is that intentionally misnaming the virus/disease is done to mock perceived political correctness. Particularly after the WHO officially named it SARS-CoV2/COVID-19, if someone on twitter referred to the virus/disease as "Chinese coronavirus"/"Wuhan virus"/etc, someone would usually respond saying that such language was xenophobic. This happens to a few prominent people, screenshots are made, screenshots are shared around, people pile in on one side or the other, the issue quickly becomes partisan. In the end, right-leaning media/individuals/presidents coalesce and intentionally emphasize the Chinese origin as a protest against perceived oversensitivity.

Normally I'm loathe to suggest that things which happen on twitter direct wider social discourse, but I believe this is the most accurate characterization of events in this case.

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#339
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, there's basically no current evidence to suggest it was engineered, and plenty of evidence to suggest it was zoonotic and evolved naturally. One possibility that can't be totally ruled out is that maybe this was one of many viruses collected from local animals which their virology lab had stored for current or future study, and some kind of mistake led to it escaping, perhaps through an employee unknowingly g…

Dr Shi Zhengli was working on bat Coronavirus research in the US and we closed the program down in the US in 2014 for being too dangerous. She returned to China to continue her research in Wuhan. Yeah. Just a coincidence.

Let's talk coincidences then

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#340
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, there's basically no current evidence to suggest it was engineered, and plenty of evidence to suggest it was zoonotic and evolved naturally. One possibility that can't be totally ruled out is that maybe this was one of many viruses collected from local animals which their virology lab had stored for current or future study, and some kind of mistake led to it escaping, perhaps through an employee unknowingly g…

Dr Shi Zhengli was working on bat Coronavirus research in the US and we closed the program down in the US in 2014 for being too dangerous. She returned to China to continue her research in Wuhan. Yeah. Just a coincidence.

Let's talk coincidences, then:

1) "Wuhan is a huge city"

That is true, but there are eight other more populous cities in China.Source: Wikipedia

2) "maybe the lab was created there and bats were studied there in the first place because the general area was known to already have virus-carrying animals like bats"

Not really, the southern provinces of China are much more prone to these outbreaks. Shi Zenghli herself said "“I had never expected this kind of thing to happen in Wuhan, in central China.” Her studies had shown that the southern, subtropical areas of Guangdong, Guangxi and Yunnan have the greatest risk of coronaviruses jumping to humans from animals—particularly bats, a known reservoir for many viruses. Source: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-chinas-bat-wo...

3) "maybe the lab was created there and bats were studied there in the first place because the general area was known to already have virus-carrying animals like bats?!"

I'm afraid not. The bats used in her experiences were mainly from Yunnan province, over 1000kms away from Wuhan (check the same source).

4) "A lab escape is totally plausible and wouldn't be shocking, but it needs strong arguments, analysis, and evidence."Just read the papers authored by Shi Zenghli, they are all available online. Start at this one: Pre-print [ https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.22.914952v1 ]: "We then found a short RdRp region from a bat coronavirus termed BatCoV RaTG13 which we previously detected in Rhinolophus affinis from Yunnan Province showed high sequence identity to nCoV-2019. We did full-length sequencing to this RNA sample. Simplot analysis showed that nCoV-2019 was highly similar throughout the genome to RaTG13 (Fig. 1c), with 96.2% overall genome sequence identity."

Then, pay a visit to the Wuhan Institute of Virology website:

"(...) is equipped with a general office, scientific research planning office, organization & personnel department, finance department, graduate student office , with five functional management departments, logistics support center, network information center, public technical service center (including analysis and testing center, experimental animal center, BSL -3 laboratory, isotope room, etc.), Virologica Sinica (English version), Wuhan National Biosafety Laboratory, State Key Laboratory of Virology and other support departments."

SARS-CoV-2 very likely had a laboratorial origin, not from cell cultures, but from the interaction between bats and their lab animal technicians. Considering how easily viruses mutate and recombine to acquire new genes, the RaTG13 coronavirus is very plausibly the origin of SARS-CoV-2, for instance in one or several of these circumstances:

a) Transmission chains in research animal facilities involving different species animals, including - but not necessarily restricted to - bats; b) Bidirectional transmission chains between lab animals and their handlers; c) Transmission of the RaTG13 coronavirus from a lab animal to a susceptible handler, with subsequent mutation and transmission chains within humans.

And this was certainly what Wuhan virologist Shi Zheng-Li, China's foremost coronavirus expert, was thinking when she candidly aknowledged to Scientific American's Jane Qiu, ' "If coronaviruses were the culprit, she remembers thinking, “could they have come from our lab?” '.

5) "You're accusing a specific person of involvement in a major pandemic with evidence you admit is flimsy at best"

Actually, this possibility was first raised by two Chinese authors, in February 2020, who uploaded an article titled "The possible origins of 2019-nCoV coronavirus" in ResearchGate. The paper was never published, and is no longer accessible in that platform, but can still be found online.

On the other hand, I believe this was an accidental event derived from negligent lab practices, rather than a deliberate action by someone.

Post reply on HN