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New York Governor announces 100% workforce reduction for non-essential services

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Re: New York Governor announces 100% workforce reduction for non-essential services

#331

Post by nostrademons »

uoaei wrote: post #328
henryfjordan wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Newsom referred to California as a "Nation State" repeatedly in his latest address, which is a great way to tell the Federal Government to pound sand. He took Trump's call for each state to fend for itself seriously. I wouldn't say that he's not fighting with the president. He's been doing a great job though

Wouldn't it be wild if this triggered secession?

It might. Historically pandemics have remade the global map and socio-economic system. The combination of WW1 + Spanish Flu led to the collapse of the Russian, Austrian, Ottoman, and Chinese empires along with the formation of the UK and a resurgent American, German, and Italian nationalism. Black Death led to the collapse of the feudal system and the rise of bourgeoise capitalism. The Plague of Justinian laid to rest any hopes that the Byzantine empire would recapture the Western Roman Empire and lead to a reunified Rome.

I could see this being the start of a ~10 year period of social unrest, plague, and natural calamities that eventually destroys the nation-state in favor of a loose conglomeration of city-states.

Re: New York Governor announces 100% workforce reduction for non-essential services

#332

Post by hevelvarik »

devy wrote: post #312
leereeves wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC has the highest population density in the US, and yet Cuomo is fighting against stronger measures in NYC proposed by Mayor De Blasio.

It's a difficult decision to be made. On one hand, short term strong measure will guarantee unemployment and bankruptcies and potentially long term economic impact (talk about another the Great Depression). On the other hand, inaction will inevitably cause millions of deaths including young people. It's a chilling effect to see that "the point of no return" date was already past last week for NY. Very very disturbing…

I can't remember the last time I logged in.

I live in in Crown Heights, Brooklyn and I don't want belittle the gravity of the situation at all because we have seen seen 3 obituary entries (all elderly) and have a number of other people who we are praying for in precarious situations.

But your comment strikes me as something out dystopian sci-fi. Our volunteer ems reps as of 4 days ago estimated that 80% of the community had been infected and anecdotally it seems now higher than than that. I do not know anyone who has not had flu like symptoms in the past week. Obviously, that means that I along with my entire immediate family have been slowly recovering from sometimes flue like this past week and G-d willing will feel good again in the next day or days.

And I know that other communities in Brooklyn and upstate NY have similar infection saturation. Thus the official infection numbers are off by factors of 10 which means the death and hospitalization rates are significantly overstated. The danger is in the absolute numbers.

I don't know what to make of all this other than that some large communities have peaked and aren't seeing death in streets as it were.

There's every reason to hope and good reasons to believe that the distancing measures now in effect will give NY the time to ramp up the health care system to accommodate those most badly affected.

I hope someone found something useful in this comment.

Re: New York Governor announces 100% workforce reduction for non-essential services

#333

Post by codyb »

CPLX wrote: post #262
fiftyfifty wrote: post #56

It seems highly likely that the US is headed where the whole of Europe is now: over 100,000 positives, over 5,000 deaths. We waited too long for actions like this. It will take a month before we see a drop in cases and deaths

Well seeing as how fatalities from workplace related injuries average about 5,000-6,000 a year, maybe we'll end up ahead. In all seriousness the math around the trade-offs inherent in all these discussions seems oddly absent. About three million people die every year in the U.S., many of those deaths preventable with far less drastic measures than we are taking here, and it doesn't seem like we're having anything lik…

It may be because our current health care infrastructure handles the expected rates of injuries and death through these internalized manners, and we’ve decided we’d rather not watch it collapse while sacrificing five percent of our elderly?

Plus whatever amount of people would die from not having access to healthcare?

And the innumerable numbers with long term reduced lung function.

And the fact the rest of the world would shut us off from everything regardless since we’d be this gigantic disaster zone.

I think, and don’t quote me on this, that the UKs original plan was “fuck it, lets aim for herd immunity”. I don’t think it took long for them to realize how terrible of an idea that was.

And lets not forget the incredible numbers of younger Americans with underlying health issues who’d die off in droves.

So I guess, is it _really_ that strange we’re not asking “what if just said fuck it”?

Edit: sorry if that came off rude, I suspect if you did ask that question, something akin to the above is the answer you’d get :-)

Re: New York Governor announces 100% workforce reduction for non-essential services

#334

Post by fzeroracer »

munificent wrote: post #23
ilamont wrote: post #6

There is currently no plan in place to penalize individuals for gathering socially Then people won't take the rules seriously. Lots of people in this country still don't believe or understand how much damage this virus can inflict.

Man, I hate this take. I get where it's coming from. In times of significant stress, it's important that we all pull together and do work to benefit society as a whole. And part of the way we incentivize that is by calling out people who don't do their part. I get it. But we are already inundated by outrage journalism, cancel culture, and public shaming. The last thing we need is more of that. We've already got enoug…

No amount of complaints about 'cancel culture' or what not is gonna stop me from shaming people very loudly for not washing their hands.

Wash your damn hands.

Re: New York Governor announces 100% workforce reduction for non-essential services

#335

Post by codyb »

shadowgovt wrote: post #191
munificent wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, I hate this take. I get where it's coming from. In times of significant stress, it's important that we all pull together and do work to benefit society as a whole. And part of the way we incentivize that is by calling out people who don't do their part. I get it. But we are already inundated by outrage journalism, cancel culture, and public shaming. The last thing we need is more of that. We've already got enoug…

Yeah, but people aren't machines. We will absolutely get upset when our loved ones die because a minority of fools decided their party was more important than our familys' continued survival. Analogy to some stupid servers is the worst way to analyze this situation. Mandatory breakup of large groups is actually the lighter of the tools the government could use here. Intentionally endangering other people's lives is u…

The problem is jail is just about the worst place you could put someone potentially infected.

Re: New York Governor announces 100% workforce reduction for non-essential services

#336

Post by [deleted] »

Thriptic wrote: post #276
psychlops wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes time to criminalize freedom. For some, it can't happen fast enough.

If someone wants to exercise their freedoms and accept responsibility for harm they cause to themselves, I don't have a problem with that. I do however have a problem with someone's exercise of their freedoms causing physical harm to me without my consent. In the same way that it's not acceptable to get lit and then drive a car because it creates a risk to other people, people should shut up and stay inside when told…

[deleted]

Re: New York Governor announces 100% workforce reduction for non-essential services

#337

Post by dragonwriter »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #254
ransom1538 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry what? His state has the highest infection rate and he just NOW did a 100% workforce reduction. He hasn't even issued "a shelter in place" order. BARS WERE OPEN MONDAY. Thousands of deaths will be on his hands. I think he should be criminally prosecuted. NY needs to be locked down NOW .

For good and for ill, it is Constitutionally problematic to "lock down" an entire state, as it is essentially placing millions of people under arrest, which in the general case is a stupefyingly terrible power for any government to wield. On the other hand, the state can totally shut down businesses. In circumstances like this, it is not suspect in the least. I will further note that for Cuomo to be criminally prosec…

> For good and for ill, it is Constitutionally problematic to "lock down" an entire state

Not particularly, curfew and similar restrictions are common emergency measures, and their is no Constitutional difference for greater scale except that it reduces the possibility of it being covert discrimination. And, even if it was, Cuomo had one of the most pressing needs to do it of any state, and was slower than some others. Now, I'm not arguing he was negligent, but he's not a head-and-shoulders above everyone else standout the way he's been portrayed upthread, either.

> On the other hand, the state can totally shut down businesses

Cuomo was slow at that, too.

> I will further note that for Cuomo to be criminally prosecuted, he would need to commit some crime

Untrue. People are criminally prosecuted (and even convicted) without committing crimes all the time. He'd have to be accused of a crime, though.

Re: New York Governor announces 100% workforce reduction for non-essential services

#338

Post by babesh »

IAmEveryone wrote: post #228
s1artibartfast wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the applicable concept concept is that cancle culture is ineffective at changing minds and a more compassionate approach is more appropriate in both the short and long run. Hate and shame feeds reactionary behavior and is counter productive. If you disagree with someone, empathize with them as a human being and explain how their behavior is hurting others

Hate and shame are evolutionary mechanisms to get people to follow group norms. As long as they hurt (something you seem to accept), people will try to avoid them. It’s also worth noting that these are mild measures compared to the other stick societies like to use, criminal law. If people felt confident that rapists were prosecuted not just in cases where their victims number in the dozens (Weinstein, Crosby), they…

Mob rule killed Socrates

Re: New York Governor announces 100% workforce reduction for non-essential services

#339

Post by dragonwriter »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #287
vkou wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For good and for ill, it is Constitutionally problematic to "lock down" an entire state, as it is essentially placing millions of people under arrest, which in the general case is a stupefyingly terrible power for any government to wield. I don't understand why this meme keeps getting repeated, when the power to quarantine has been rather conclusively litigated in the courts.

The power to quarantine individuals and groups of infected people has been well-litigated. But it is a very new thing indeed to tell 7 or 8 million people at a time, around 99% of whom are still expected to be uninfected, that they are now threats, and are under some form of house arrest. This is unprecedented and has never been litigated. New York's quarantine law, in particular, allows you to challenge the quaranti…

> The power to quarantine individuals and groups of infected people has been well-litigated.

So has the power to issue emergency curfews when justified by a compelling state interest, which is what a shelter-in-place order is.

Re: New York Governor announces 100% workforce reduction for non-essential services

#340

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

CPLX wrote: post #307
disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people react really badly to the cold-hearted measuring out of human lives, except when it's war.

I mean they themselves actually do it routinely. They just don’t always know or admit that they are doing it.

Yeah, but it doesn't enter the public consciousness, and people pretend not to understand.

It's one of the glorious fudges that we all collectively engage in.

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