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Why N95 masks are hard to make

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331–340 of 363 posts

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the mask could be contaminated. In fact, I would hope that the person wearing the mask has a good reason to wear it, either someone in their household is sick and they are protecting themselves or they are sick and they are protecting everyone else who is home with them. I think it is a bad idea for everyone to wear a mask when there is no threat to their health. With people furloughed home it is likely…

Agreed. The use case I am hoping to help solve for is health care workers (eg. Nursing home aides) who have a very limited supply of N95 masks that they wind up having to re-use for multiple days / weeks at a stretch. If they have access to a quick affective way to sterilize them without ruining them (I like the microwave idea too) then they can stay healthier, and their patients can stay healthier.

I thought about this a lot last night trying to get to sleep.

Using what we know about the lifetime of the virus on various surfaces can we exploit that to allow reuse of masks that have been exposed to the virus but that still retain their filtering ability because they were only used for the time period necessary to treat one patient and then were discarded so as not to carry the virus into clean areas?

I wonder whether masks that have been used once could be bagged and set aside long enough for the virus to die after which time they could be reused. One could speed the process by placing the masks in a humidity controlled environment so that air circulates around them allowing any water film from the user's breath to quickly evaporate. Obviously it would be critical to avoid any situation where you created an opportunity for mold growth.

In this model, the masks are collected as they are discarded. Then they are held out of service for at least double the known time necessary for them to die on the mask surface. This requires someone to determine how long it is viable on a mask. That seems easy enough to determine.

This may be an option for places where ordinary disinfection is problematic. Sounds extreme and potentially dangerous and that is why it should be thoroughly vetted before anyone attempts it. Don't try this at home!

I also wondered about how health care workers are being infected and after seeing a number of posts with pictures of workers showing their faces marked by the masks I have a question.

Is it possible that the health care workers are infecting themselves by creating an environment on their skin that is conducive to infection? There are pictures showing deep marks that to me suggest that the masks have been made to fit around noses but in the process, the fit across the rest of the face is compromised.

The model for this comes from my own experience repairing cars, plumbing, etc. in any situation where a gasket is used to create a seal.

The user needs to avoid over-torquing the connections being joined because that over-torquing deforms the gasket enough to compromise the seal thus creating a leak.

I know that the average mask does not fit many people's faces. It seems that a more effective seal can be accomplished if one had a gasket kit with the mask that would effect a seal without the need to tightly compress across the nose. The gasket could be applied directly to the edge of the mask and would adhere to the mask using a peel-n-stick gasket.

I know from using masks in my own shop that leakage around the nose is the biggest problem with masks. The second biggest in my experience is leakage on the cheeks due to facial hair since I have a mustache that grows wild on my own lip and I am unlikely to trim or shave it.

If health workers don't clean their faces when they put on a new mask they may be allowing virus to infect them in the damaged skin areas.

Thinking out loud here. It just seems stupid to throw away an effective filter that has been used once for a few minutes when it has been demonstrated that virus has a finite lifespan that we can nail down by testing. If we simply wait for time to do its job, the masks can be reused multiple times with no opportunity for chemical or mechanical degradation of the filter media.

Probably a monumentally stupid idea like all those ideas you get just before you slip into unconsciousness.

tl:dr - For those workers with no sterilization options can they just set the used masks aside out of service long enough for the virus to die before returning them to service?

Obviously this a question for someone with the facilities available to determine viability on mask media so no one should consider this to be an option at this time.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#332
post #328
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's efficiency from a certain perspective . That's this wonderful efficiency that makes the world extremely sensitive to the current Covid-19 situation. That's the very opposite of antifragility . We need resilience, too. This has absolutely nothing to do with isolationism or tribalism. Gee, I hate this sort of strawman argument. Our globalised, ultra-lean, efficient world was built on a humongous influx of fossil…

Efficiency and resiliency are different things. If you want resiliency, you plan accordingly - left to its own devices, the capitalist market will always go for ultimate efficiency, that's a primary property of the system. This is not the Soviet Union deciding to do potatoes in one country and cars in another, people take smaller decisions that aggregate up to certain phenomenons. If you don't like those phenomenons,…

Sorry but no, the problem isn't of industry closing down in France and opening back in Belgium, you're misrepresenting things. There has been a long history of the idea that we Europeans don't really need to "make things", that we could relocate our industry wherever it's more "efficient" (i. e. cheaper, because mostly of lower environmental and social safeguards, and because nobody directly pays for the externalities -- that's good old imperialism, colonialism in new clothes IMO) and keep the know-how, engineering, and power for us while Chinese or others would do the dirty work for us. And this stupid idea began to crumble a few years back already, and is now suddenly proven dead to everyone (hopefully).

There is such a thing as sovereignty, and it doesn't matter at which scale it happens; sovereignty implies having control on whatever things you can't do without. Can Europe or the US be sovereign without steel mills? maybe. Car manufacturing? possibly. Chemistry and pharmaceutical production? not so sure. Oil? see our leaders grovelling at MBS' knees while he's butchering Yemen. Ah.

In the US, some top brass came recently to the realisation that the US can't make a war plane without Chinese input anymore. That may be a problem sooner or later.

Similarly, the impact of the transfer of industries and money across Europe isn't a problem per se, it's only a problem because nothing provides any equilibrium -- no transfers at any significant scales. So far Germany sends cars and machines across Europe, and gets paper in exchange. At times, some important German minister or another goes harping that someday, that TARGET2 balance will have to be cleared. Does this even make sense? Can we have a European money, but not a European industry? I don't think so. Something will have to give at some point or another.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#333
post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

> a country having its own major manufacturing base American manufacturing output has grown since 1990 [1]. What it’s been losing is manufacturing employment . Having more people making a similar number of things does nothing for national security. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OUTMS

I think people are talking about masks, medical supplies, medicine manufacturing are all critical to the national security and should be brought back. This should be taken as a learning experience as well as a national disaster. Lest we forget in a year. Those industries can be subsidized as they are critical and we can't trust other countries for those supplies in pandemics and other world disasters.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#334
post #242
post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

It's not true that US or any other developed country have lost their manufacturing base. The rest of the economy has grown faster than manufacturing. Developed countries have moved into high-tech, high productivity, more capital intensive manufacturing with complex supply chains. If you want to bring back low productivity products into your country, you must accept wage decline, slower growth and lowering quality of…

People like to say post industrial and post information societies but neither of those are true. We rely on both quite heavily and should learn from things like this pandemic that we can't trust to outsource all our manufacturing to other countries especially military rivals like China who will naturally cut us off when we have a war over Taiwan when China really starts flexing.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#335
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

P100 doesn't stop coronavirus...

Nothing stops 100% of viruses. But if everyone wears something -- anything really, even a handkerchief or a piece of toilet paper -- that reduces the chance of infection by 50% for example, there will be only half as many infections compared to the case where nobody wore anything. After a few rounds of 50% reduection, even a mediocre mask will be able to reduce the number of cases by 99%. And that's all we need to pr…

People don't realize the viral load is as big a deal as type of virus .

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. The economic benefits of globalized supply chains are real. The question is not whether or not supply chains should be globalized but how to ensure their safety in the event of a global disruption? It's days like these that I'm really sad that more Americans don't do military service. Ensuring the long-term viability of large, generally dormant stockpiles is the core competency of the military in peacetim…

> My argument is that the military should maintain large manufacturing capacity that is generally dormant during peacetime (when it is too expensive compared to a globalized supply chain) so that it can be spun up in the event of global supply chain disruptions. Might be a good solution, but how about having some more generic production capacity instead that can adapt quickly to urgent needs? China is quickly convert…

> "generic production capacity"

Much like the generic scientist/engineer in video games (imagine telling a chemical engineer that they're suddenly a electrical engineer), there is no such thing as "generic production capacity". Specific high-tech industries require specific hardware and specific expertise (like the melt-blown fabric mentioned in the article) that you can't just keep on standby indefinitely.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#337
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why we insist on keeping people in jobs that can be automated. Let them go pursue something that's fulfilling. Not automating something that can be just to keep people doing jobs we don't need done is a fascinating make-work project. The displaced should be re-trained, provided meaningful opportunities, or yeah, paid basic income out of the money saved by them not going to work. Why pay them to do…

Because to me, the consumer, I can't think of a single time automation replacing humans has been better. Self checkouts suck for anything more than a handful of items, especially compared to a well trained cashier/bagger combo. Automated call/IVR systems are hypertension inducing bad. ATMs are no replacement for tellers for most situations that bring one to the bank. I'm not a complete luddite. In many systems, speci…

Have you used home depot's self check out machines?

They are fantastic. Leaps ahead of every supermarket and CVS I've been in. When I was doing a lot of housework and was very used to them, I could get through a check out with a couple of items in under a minute. Really proved to me that these do not need to be awful

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#338
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to see how lower paid jobs are more liveable or provide better quality of life, or how smaller scale and therefore less efficient manufacturing would be better for the environment. I just don't see how these outcomes are supposed to arise. More resilient, ok maybe, but surely there are other ways that resilience could be achieved through e.g. rolling stockpiling or maintaining flexible manufacturing capabil…

> It's hard to see how lower paid jobs are more liveable or provide better quality of life We had higher paid jobs (or more yield per job, a single working person could support a family, buy a house, send kids to college) in the 50s and 60s for example, so I'm not sure why "turning back time" means lower paid jobs (or less purchase capacity). Give me necessities (house/rent, food, taking care of kids, college, etc) a…

The US economic boom in the 50s largely stemmed from the fact that the entire outside world had been devastated from WW2. US industry had a huge lead since the continental US was largely free on war damage.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#339
post #14
post #4

> China now makes 200 million face masks a day — more than twenty times the amount it made at the start of February. That’s an insane number of masks. Does one in seven Chinese wear a fresh one every day ? Is this gonna be the new normal?

> Does one in seven Chinese wear a fresh one every day? China doesn't hoard masks, but sends them to various countries that have been hit hard. (EDIT: and I see the downvotes, and cringe inside that even humanitarian aid is seen as a valid target for anti China hate)

I think this comment just reads as an assertion made to push a narrative. If you could provide some data about the relative domestic production and export quantities it would add a lot to the discussion and community’s knowledge. Part of what makes HN such a great resource is that people share facts and reasoning to justify their opinions.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apparently medium scale sheet metal forming operations in the States have all but disappeared - everything is either outsourced to China, or is small scale, high precision work that can't meet demand of more than N hundred pieces a week. I can personally confirm this. Very unfortunate, and I'm positive it's helping stifle innovation. Having to go to China for your custom sheet metal needs (with the communication dif…

You can get custom sheet metal work, if you're willing the pay the price and possibly are in the right industry. Sheet metal, welding, carpentry, pipefitters, and pretty much every trade are in massive demand in shipbuilding/repair. NNSY fails a significant portion of welder applicants just because they can't lay a proper weld. They pay... a lot of money.

I've always wondered if the sheet metal used to build Naval ships was made locally in the states.

Makes sense, getting it made in China seems like a bad idea

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