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Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

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Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#331

Post by nrki »

gowld wrote: post #312
paxys wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California is a big state. San Francisco median income is over $100,000, and you are still not going to be able to get your own apartment in that much. I'd argue that software developers are underpaid , considering large tech companies had been illegally colluding for years to restrict competition and keep wages low.

>median income is over $100,000, and you are still not going to be able to get your own apartment in that much. Here's 100 apartments for under $2000/mo https://www.apartments.com/san-francisco-ca/under-2000/

Most of those are a bedroom in a shared situation, or student accommodation.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#332

Post by chinesempire »

tsycho wrote: post #175
dijit wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a junior sysadmin in London I earned 26k; If not for a senior engineer talking openly about salary I would not have had the guts to ask for a significant increase. At the time the very senior people in the company were earning 75-85k, and the mid-levels between 32-45k. I was fortunate enough to be taught very well, I became senior in that company in a very short amount of time, but I never got the raise th…

Orthogonal to your anecdote, tech salaries in London are ridiculously low :(

But you don't have to go full breaking bad if you get sick.

If you look at the official data[0] 2016-2018 you get this:

     Item                       2016     2017     2018      
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Average income before taxes     $74,664  $73,573  $78,635                                    
    Average annual expenditures      57,311   60,060   61,224
Which gives a net bonus of ~20% before taxes, with an average 25% tax rate (it depends a lot on where you are, so I stayed low) you get around 15% net gain, excluding medical bills.

The average London household spend is around £650 per week[1] or £33.800 per year

The average London salary[2] is around £736.5 per year or £38.298 per year which gives a net gain of over ~13%, but with medical bills included.

But you can easily make 70k-100k in London working in finance or SWE.

All in all is not that different (it actually is, UK is better on average, we are not even accounting for things like job seekers allowance - the dole in UK - or the benefits for having kids etc. etc.).

[0] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm

[1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal...

[2] https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#333

Post by chinesempire »

motohagiography wrote: post #158

Contrarian view: salary disclosure destroys value for people with negotiating skills, which are among the most valuable and useful skills of all. Disclosure advantages people who collude to apply political pressure (gang up) instead of appealing to principles or leveraging their skill and the value they bring. There is general social and economic harm to facilitating this behaviour. Disclosure lowers all boats in tha…

> Contrarian view: salary disclosure destroys value for people with negotiating skills, which are among the most valuable and useful skills of all.

It's like saying that tech conferences destroy value for people with tech skills because people share knowledge...

Negotiation skills are mostly useless when the market is regulated, just like most of the western World, excluding the US

My compensation depends on a nation wide contract and its base salary

The variable part depends on my skills, not as a negotiator, but on my abilities to do my job better than the average

I can ask a nice bonus because I produce more value than the average or the same value in less time to the company or the clients I work for

It's really not that hard to negotiate when you have something to offer.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#334

Post by chinesempire »

RestlessMind wrote: post #222
jcelerier wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> salary disclosure destroys value for people with negotiating skills, which are among the most valuable and useful skills of all. The world would be a very very shitty place if we had to negotiate for everything on an individual basis. It's much more efficient to find the few people who actually have that skill and let them do it for the group (and we can spend more time actually trying to fucking improve the human…

> It's much more efficient to find the few people who actually have that skill and let them do it for the group And human nature being what it is, why won't those few people negotiate better deals for themselves while keeping peanuts for the rest? (see: class action layers, bosses of Unions etc).

> why won't those few people negotiate better deals for themselves while keeping peanuts for the rest?

Because they would be very bad negotiators and wouldn't be hired in the first place.

And because they probably are scamming the rest of the group, which is a crime in most developed countries.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#335

Post by chinesempire »

RestlessMind wrote: post #226
uncletaco wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social security and Medicare are both social safety nets that one cannot take advantage of while they're working in most cases, and everything else you've mentioned either requires a person to be in extreme poverty or severely disabled. Meanwhile a healthy, young, gainfully employed person in France can take advantage of a wealth of social services and benefits. Mentioning them the way you have requires a very unchar…

> Meanwhile a healthy, young, gainfully employed person in France can take advantage of a wealth of social services and benefits. If they have such an amazing welfare system, then why are the French perennially rioting[1]? And why do so many recent French presidents have abysmal approval ratings[2]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unr... [2] Macron: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_p…

> If they have such an amazing welfare system, then why are the French perennially rioting

because they are alive and free.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#336

Post by theredlion »

senordevnyc wrote: post #297
throwaway84762 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throwaway because post-Damore, as a white male, this isn't a discussion I can be publicly involved in if I want to keep having a career in tech. I've collected some of the more egregious things I've heard around women and minorities in tech. At a well-known company, while it was small, regarding hiring an office manager, the female head of HR said "I don't want to say it, but I'm leaning towards [the female candidate…

This kind of behavior is appalling! Imagine if someone had ever said or behaved these ways to give men a leg up that they didn’t deserve! I certainly hope someone would keep the careful tally of a handful of anecdotes that you have.

The people bringing this sort of thing up are not pretending that men have not enjoyed advantages in the past and present. They are simply pointing out the occurrences on the other side.

Just to point out that retributive social justice is a major factor in the ideologies which brought about Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Castro's Cuba, and so on. Millions of people died because of "justified" retaliatory ideologies. That's not a mistake that needs to be made again.

I am personally attempting to make sure that equality of opportunity, rather than retribution, is the motivating factor. The earlier down the slope we cement that, the better.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#337

Post by theredlion »

scarface74 wrote: post #271
theredlion wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly begins to play into the realm of Socialism when one advocates that there should be laws in place which mandate salary laws which restrict an individual's ability to negotiate for themselves. I'm not saying that you're necessarily advocating for that because I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I have been involved in a number of discussions with people who are interested in exploring that path. >…

certainly begins to play into the realm of Socialism when one advocates that there should be laws in place which mandate salary laws which restrict an individual's... Strangely enough you were the only one to bring up anything about laws being passed..... Are you also opposed to the government forcing products like cigarettes to have disclaimers where the buyer can decide to buy them or not knowing the risk involved?…

> Strangely enough you were the only one to bring up anything about laws being passed.....

How else are you proposing that we mandate equal salaries?

> Are you also opposed to the government forcing products like cigarettes to have disclaimers where the buyer can decide to buy them or not knowing the risk involved?

I think it is strange how arbitrary it is to mark cigarettes like this.

Why not put domestic abuse, fetal alcohol syndrome, car accidents, and alcoholism pictures on every bottle of beer?

Why not put mutilated corpses of people who have died in the vehicle on the side of every car you look at buying?

Why is it just cigarettes that gets that treatment? Why should even cigarettes get that treatment?

There are a million things you can do that harm yourself and others. Freedom of choice + Education is key, NOT government mandate of whatever it decides is safe for your consumption.

> Would you be okay with all of the products you buy having no prices and people getting better prices based on negotiation?

That's exactly how the market works. You are constantly negotiating when you make any financial decision. If people decide that Store XYZ has bread that is too expensive, they can go to Store FGH. Just because many individual stores set prices doesn't mean that there aren't macro negotiations constantly happening. That's pretty much the definition of the free market.

Also micro negotiations are allowed to happen thanks to a free market. Sometimes you get ripped off, sometimes you get a good deal. Again, education is key. You get burned so you learn.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#338

Post by theredlion »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #202
theredlion wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting question. I'm personally aware of several large companies in my area which, due to diversity pressure, blatantly discriminate in favor of minorities and women. The performance required from a white man in an interview for the same job is higher. That is to say that a white man will be openly discarded in favor of a minority/woman with a similar background when applying for the same job. This is…

Funny how its 'blantant' when men are at a disadvantage. Where was this comment the other 99% of the places, when women and minorities are nearly non-existant? Not worth mentioning? I know its an idealistic comment, that the world should be fair in every place. But because these comments come out only when men are not in their usual favored position, I cannot help but see them as a kind of 'institutional bias' for me…

> Funny how its 'blantant' when men are at a disadvantage. Where was this comment the other 99% of the places, when women and minorities are nearly non-existant? Not worth mentioning?

I'm not sure when or what you are talking about, but if there is injustice against anybody, I speak out against it. It just so happens that movements can go too far and become retaliatory, which is what I would like to prevent.

Women and minorities should OBVIOUSLY have equal opportunity, but the implementation of that cannot harm majority males BECAUSE::: that is not a good long term strategy for society. It WILL cause (and already has caused) resentment and anger and I do not want to see a USA devolve into an actual second civil war.

> I know its an idealistic comment, that the world should be fair in every place. But because these comments come out only when men are not in their usual favored position, I cannot help but see them as a kind of 'institutional bias' for men.

These comments do not ONLY come out in defense of men. Perhaps it is the particular posts you view, but to say there isn't overwhelming defense of women and minorities in the case of injustice is telling me that you aren't seeing the full picture.

I just explained in this post that MYSELF, a person wary of a situation disadvantaging white men, also speaks up when a minority or woman is disadvantaged for their sex or skin color.

Injustice is injustice.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#339

Post by motohagiography »

kragen wrote: post #326
motohagiography wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who read about negotiation typically learn it's a positive sum process for creating and discovering value. People who have not often conflate haggling with negotiation. There is a critical theory that arbitrarily paints the process as "transactional," or "confrontational," but it is not something that survives and bears out in a competitive environment. The managers I have seen who subscribe to the co-operatio…

Negotiation is not always or usually zero-sum. Salary negotiation is a kind of haggling, which is an exception.

Can guarantee it's not a zero sum haggle.

A comp package has a salary number, it also has bonuses, commissions, stocks, options, IP ownership, holidays, work from home time, days/week, travel requirements, travel policy, mat/pat leave, non-competes, and myriad other options that effect the salary number you arrive at.

If you agree to a salary number without taking these into account, they will necessarily disadvantage you on these.

When someone asks, what is your salary expectation, you answer, we're using the same market data and it's really a question of the total package.

A lot of people are only interested in deals that screw you. This is a super fast filter to find them.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#340

Post by theredlion »

senordevnyc wrote: post #298
theredlion wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To tack onto this: I know of mid level managers who are eagerly pushing their female direct-reports to higher positions in far less time and under far less qualification requirements than male counterparts in similar roles. The exact reasoning is because they are women. Some of those women have expressed annoyance at this because they feel that they are being touted as poster-children for the managers. The women also…

If only we could go back to the good old days when things were a meritocracy and no one was getting promoted unfairly because of their race, gender, or relationships.

Are you too full of cynicism to see that that is exactly what I am advocating for or is your hatred of white men too much for you to think that someone can be both defending white men AND women AND minorities?
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