Help me ask why you didn't just • Hacker News Board

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#331

Post by pdonis » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:41 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #330

pdonis wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone may be genuinely interested in feedback. > You may be genuinely trying to understand it yourself > if you have enough education/experience related to X, you may actually have a better answer at first glance. They might actually be interested in improving it and open to your suggestions If any of these things are true, you will either know them well enough to know how to talk to them about it, or they will a…

Not everyone is equally socially astute. Some people aren't good at inferring such things. Such people need to work at it to make their life work. Even if you are innately good at it, you may not automatically know how to handle it well if it's a new context in some way. This can include being a foreign national or facing other cultural barriers. The most socially astute people aren't simply "born with" such talents.…

> Some people aren't good at inferring such things.

And my advice to those people is exactly what I said: if you're not sure how to communicate what you think is a good suggestion, or how to ask a question you're curious about, without giving offense, because you don't know the people or their work well enough, then don't do anything. That uncertainty you feel is a clue: it means you shouldn't be doing anything at all. Heed it.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#332

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

sailfast wrote: post #284

"Not knowing too much here, sshd comes to mind as an option. Is it worth trying out?"

[deleted]

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#333

Post by Kye » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

ljm wrote: post #277

Replacing ‘why’ with ‘how come’ turns a seemingly judgmental question into a curious one. I prefer to ask what they’ve already tried so far, though, instead of jumping to an immediate diagnosis. At least then your ‘how come’ question can point to a novel solution they may not have considered. Because you know what they already have tried.

They read like synonyms to me.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#334

Post by Kalium » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 6:28 PM UTC

morgancmartin wrote: post #275

nkrisc wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The directness here is important. If you start playing word games to imply things (non-threatening, non-accusative) etc., you confuse the message. You know what's worse than a threatening or accusative question? One where the recipient spends their time trying to guess what second meaning might be implied with the obviously convoluted wording. Clear, direct questions that have only one distinct query. >> Would there…

> Some people might be offended or sensitive to direct questions, but that's for them to work through with their therapist. It's a fair position to take, but in some cases where successful communication is a necessity, that stance doesn't cut it. My go-to heuristic is "the wordier the question, the more likely it is to be perceived as well intentioned." So if I'm wondering why someone didn't use sshd, I might say, "S…

> My go-to heuristic is "the wordier the question, the more likely it is to be perceived as well intentioned."

Are you familiar with "How To Make Friends And Influence People"? It trades on exactly this idea.

Specifically, it trades on this idea to both seem well-intentioned and manipulate people. It uses this presumption of good intentions to cover the true intentions. It buries everything meaningful under an endless sea of noisome, excessive verbiage to lull the reader to distraction and smuggle its actual point past the listener.

Wordiness is what you do when you're worried about slipping something past someone's defenses, for fear of being unable to have the required conversation otherwise.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#335

Post by teekert » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

Ididntdothis wrote: post #188

teekert wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you would be a difficult person to work with if you get offended by that one little word. I understand that it can be annoying to be asked repeatedly but just work on an elevator pitch to explain why you didn't use X. You might even earn some respect in the process. The way you act now will "just" (sorry!) make people feel like that have to walk on eggs around you and handle your brittle mood with silk gloves…

I am usually pretty patient with people and generally don’t get offended. In this particular case we had worked very hard on that problem for a long time. This project was highly visible so everybody knew what’s going on. I think people (I tend to do that too) should think twice before giving unsolicited advice and make sure they have thought about the problem for a while and have something of value to offer. Otherwi…

Respect is such a culturally dependent thing though. I think it is more productive and nice to just assume the other person only has good intentions.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#336

Post by teekert » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

aerojoe23 wrote: post #236

icebraining wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would feel offended if anyone would feel the need to go easy on me "go easy on me" means "condescend", so you're essentially doing the same as the people mentioned: feeling offended because they perceive condescension from the speaker. > Do I look like such a weak person to you that you feel like you have to handle my self esteem with silk gloves? > Making things up in your head The phrase he came up with doesn't…

I thought his first paragraph was just being illustrative. Like look how crazy this gets. I suppose now I'm deriving meaning in my head.

It's not illustrative, it's how I would feel. Maybe it's a cultural thing. Something to take into account if I would ever work in the US. It would be nice to have some kind of rule book then, I mean if people don't just assume I mean well but get mad when I use the wrong wording means I would have to be educated very well to function in such a group. I imagine such a culture is pretty unwelcoming to other cultures.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#337

Post by teekert » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 6:36 PM UTC

glitcher wrote: post #306

teekert wrote: post #119

I would feel offended if anyone would feel the need to go easy on me, just say what you think. And if you are right I will be eternally grateful for being taught a new efficient trick. Do I look like such a weak person to you that you feel like you have to handle my self esteem with silk gloves? Thanks for the insult. And what is it with this 2 intentions? The third is the obvious correct one where I'm not familiar w…

So when others treat you in ways that you don't like (or you misinterpret their meaning) it annoys you. Sounds like you are supporting the idea of the article, albeit from a contradictory starting point.

It would annoy me yes if my genuine interest would be mistake for condescension because I choose my words wrong. This makes for a very unwelcoming culture.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#338

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 6:36 PM UTC

rbavocadotree wrote: post #300

It's funny reading all the debate about different wordings because it totally misses the point. The wording doesn't matter, only the delivery does. The recipients's interpretation of the question depends on who is saying it and how they say it. Whether or not they include the word "just" is irrelevant. Any single one of the phrases mentioned can be delivered in a way that causes offense or doesn't.

[deleted]

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#339

Post by teekert » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 6:38 PM UTC

Derbasti wrote: post #242

teekert wrote: post #119

I would feel offended if anyone would feel the need to go easy on me, just say what you think. And if you are right I will be eternally grateful for being taught a new efficient trick. Do I look like such a weak person to you that you feel like you have to handle my self esteem with silk gloves? Thanks for the insult. And what is it with this 2 intentions? The third is the obvious correct one where I'm not familiar w…

It's such a fine line to walk between discussing an issue about work, and directly insulting a human being. And so very often, the receiver interprets the message entirely differently than the sender. So I'd say regardless of how powerful you feel, personally, the same fortitude should not be assumed to exist in everybody, all the time. It's not about the strength of a person, but about avoiding harm wherever possibl…

That fine line is entirely a cultural construct though. I feel like my culture is much more inclined to assume anyone talking to them at work has good intentions. Seems like a better strategy from a game-theory perspective as well (tit for tat).

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#340

Post by lukevdp » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

rbavocadotree wrote: post #300

It's funny reading all the debate about different wordings because it totally misses the point. The wording doesn't matter, only the delivery does. The recipients's interpretation of the question depends on who is saying it and how they say it. Whether or not they include the word "just" is irrelevant. Any single one of the phrases mentioned can be delivered in a way that causes offense or doesn't.

Totally agree. Words only make up part of communication. There are >300 comments on this thread because everyone has their own way of saying this phrase based on how they would be received if they said it at their workplace.