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Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

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Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#331

Watching a SV company suddenly have to deal with German workers' rights (think: unions, significant protection from being fired without cause, rights to paid holiday and enforced maternity leave, even workers' councils which have representation at a management level) is going to be hilarious.

I'm all for some cultural drama, but I'd wager that they have done basic due diligence and they are aware of these factors :)

Not always :-)

An American Manger in BT NI manged to cause some major problems by not being sensitive to the special employment laws in Northern Ireland.

Also IMARSAT had a spectacular car crash of a court case in the UK when some one blindly imported US style HR

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#332
post #297
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is bad news; it's a smaller version of the economic bomb/distortion of creating a google campus somewhere. This will be bad for everything from housing up to the general health of startup culture in Berlin. Desperate move by the economically starved Brandenburg. (and of course they won't suffer the consequences)

So it would be better for Berlin if this factory was in another city? Taking that to its logical conclusion, it would be better for Germany to not have this factory in the country?

As long as we don't know at least the amount of subsidies paid by the state and the amount (and pay level) of employees who will work there, no factory at all could certainly be better, yes. The subsidies could be spent elsewhere, and the people could find work in facilities that won't exist because the new Gigafactory displaced competition. Without actual numbers this is all guesswork.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#333
post #52

I'm curious about how the massive left/anti-fa movement in Berlin will react to this one. They kept out Google after massive protests. Not sure this is the same thing though. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/24/google-ab... p.s. I'm based in Berlin. Have no horse in the race except that the Google office would have been right down the street of where I work.

Being a Berliner, on a personal level it would have been nice for me to have a Google office where they would have been. But I'm very happy about people standing up for their neighborhood and actually protesting. Having a Google office with >400 decidedly well-compensated people move in would very much change the neighborhood and not for the better. People fighting for their own local interests is what makes Berlin g…

But Google did not want to open a dev center with its own employees there. Campaigners acted like their Kreuzberg was the navel of the world believing that.

This was a „Google for Startups Campus“ project. Co-working spaces and startup events and so on. Money and potential funding for the Berlin startup scene.

I’m rather worried how some vocal and partly violent people, seemingly without a lot of understanding of what they are campaigning against and how the tech world works managed to stop this project.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#334
post #92
post #52

I'm curious about how the massive left/anti-fa movement in Berlin will react to this one. They kept out Google after massive protests. Not sure this is the same thing though. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/24/google-ab... p.s. I'm based in Berlin. Have no horse in the race except that the Google office would have been right down the street of where I work.

As they want to open their factory next to the new Airport, it will basically be in Brandenburg and not in the center of Berlin (not that it would fit there). They probably will change the neighbourhood there, but automobile engineers are perceived as worker class while google techies generally are not. I also think that Google would have had no problems If they would have opened their office in Adlershof. So to summ…

Still Middle class workers in both cases

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#335
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some costs to expand in European countries. EU passed a law (GVO) in 2004 saying something like that: one can repair a car in any mechanic shop and still don't loose warranty. Shop has to: - have access to service manuals using Pass Thru - this is requirement on the car producer. - document all repairs - do the repairs in a way the producer documented them

And these are very good regulations. I don't know if it's because of them, but dealing with car problems is local, fast and easy.

Yes, I agree. Authorized services ask ridiculous amounts for e.g. changing oil.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#336

It is great news for Berlin (and Brandenburg) as it will bring (big) money and attract talent. It might even attract people from Poland which is only an hour drive away and has a large pool of very talented and experienced engineers. So far besides maybe Siemens there wasn't too much industry here, which is more present in the south of the country. Being outside of the city center it won't contribute too much to gent…

It's definitely positive, although I'm also slightly disappointed. I think the original plan was to build it near Dresden. That would have been quite a signal, but on the other hand it might be good for it to be successful to have it connected with the metropolitan region Berlin/Brandenburg.

One important difference between Brandenburg and Saxony that I'm guessing may have played a role: There is a component of the corporate tax called "Gewerbesteuer" which, in Brandenburg, is set at city-level and differs widely from city to city, whereas in Saxony it is high across the board. My guess would be that there must have been a mayor somewhere in Brandenburg that made them an offer that no mayor in Saxony could compete with.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#337

It is great news for Berlin (and Brandenburg) as it will bring (big) money and attract talent. It might even attract people from Poland which is only an hour drive away and has a large pool of very talented and experienced engineers. So far besides maybe Siemens there wasn't too much industry here, which is more present in the south of the country. Being outside of the city center it won't contribute too much to gent…

> which by Berlin standards is an amazing result. They only, and rightfully, get pissed when mega corps like google/amazon come in the city center, buy a 40 storey building and starts paying everyone 100% more than the average for the same position.

How is creating highly paid jobs in the city center bad?

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#338

It is great news for Berlin (and Brandenburg) as it will bring (big) money and attract talent. It might even attract people from Poland which is only an hour drive away and has a large pool of very talented and experienced engineers. So far besides maybe Siemens there wasn't too much industry here, which is more present in the south of the country. Being outside of the city center it won't contribute too much to gent…

> which by Berlin standards is an amazing result. They only, and rightfully, get pissed when mega corps like google/amazon come in the city center, buy a 40 storey building and starts paying everyone 100% more than the average for the same position.

I'm guessing you're being sarcastic?

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#339

The Brexiteers scoffing at "Project Fear" and crowing about the uppity Europeans begging us for our (UK) car business have been strangely quiet on this one.

To be fair:

1. Brexit hasn't happened yet. I.e. UK has not been able to introduce policies that would make it a lot more competitive and friendly for business than the EU/Germany, make it friendlier for international talent, which is one of the opportunities created by Brexit.

2. We do not know what would have happened had Parliament and civil service been more positive and cooperative on Brexit. It could be a self-fulfilling prophecy - remainers in Parliament inadvertently creating greater uncertainty, which in turn drives business away as the leavers are unable to realistically guarantee a more competitive / friendlier for business Britain in the future.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#340
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emergency smoke ventilation is a solved problem, ‘little chimneys on the roof’ are one of many different solutions; there are lots of different strategies. So that sounds like nonsense. Source, I’ve worked on mega projects like this. If it’s true that someone decided to swap departures with arrivals once the building was already on site, I would say that’s your problem right there. Whoever is responsible for that cau…

The smoke ventilation system was originally designed to rely on fans to blow the smoke downwards in the ventilation shafts. As far as I know, nobody had tried to build a system like this before. Rumor has it that ventilation pipes even imploded during a test. That's not all. Signs of poor planning and poor execution seem to be everywhere. Pipes for a central water cooling system for IT and other electronics were supp…

Have a look at this [0] as an example airport where there are no ducts or fans at high level. The skylights are probably automatically controlled to vent smoke using stack effect only and the undulating roof will act as a smoke reservoir to contain smoke in one structural bay.

>The smoke ventilation system was originally designed to rely on fans to blow the smoke downwards in the ventilation shafts. As far as I know, nobody had tried to build a system like this before. Rumor has it that ventilation pipes even imploded during a test.

Well I do know of places where this has been done. It's not as failsafe as having a duct which relies on the stack effect but you have additional fans and redundant power supplies etc to make sure the system does not fail. Also the fans suck air through the system to the smoke extract outlet point as you want the pressure inside the duct to be lower than inside the building otherwise you risk blowing smoke into other parts of the building. Ducts imploding sounds like a problem with smoke dampers not activating correctly. Confusion about which dampers should be operating would be caused by a big last minute change to the layout of the spaces inside the building, which brings me back to wondering if it was because they introduced a lot more shopping area where there was none before because this is a classic last minute change in airport design that has caused problems with other airports. Big changes to space utilisation are going to cause delays and budget overruns once you have got passed the concept sketch stage.

> One escalator turned out to be too short when delivered. Instead of fixing the escalator, they extended it by adding regular stairs to the end.

Would be a major and obvious crowd safety problem and a contravention of regulations in many countries, I am assuming this would also be the case in a well regulated country like Germany. Which is why I find it hard to believe that this would be installed, rather than sent back to the factory and extended.

It's a question of managing expectations, every building is a prototype and loads of things go wrong all the time. I have heard of all the problems you describe happening on other projects for both public and private sector clients, they were just fixed and everything carried on. What you are describing has details that don't sound technically correct, so it seems like there is someone out there running a smear campaign to deflect blame from whoever made the big change to the brief, which makes me curious to know what the truth is.

For government clients airports are adverts for cities and a symbol of municipal pride so they like something that is spectacular, but private sector clients want a shopping mall with passengers winding through intestine like corridors full of shops on their way to the airplanes parked outside. Changing from one model to the other halfway through is not going to be a smooth process.

A major brief change or an unclear starting brief is what causes building (and software) projects to go late and over budget, not lots of little things like what you are describing.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolfo_Suárez_Madrid–Barajas_A...

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