Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#331

Post by zby » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:05 AM UTC

will4274 wrote: post #209

nemothekid wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the counter argument for what Stallman wrote? I've seen that the "press is going too hard on him", but, honestly, I think they were justified. What is the "big difference" to you? If someone, personally, said to me that that someone be absolved of a crime, because the other, coerced, party was "willing" at that moment, I'd seriously question their morals.

Mens rea ("guilty mind" aka criminal intent) is an important element for many crimes. People - generally - are inconsistent with regard to how much they think impact matters for a crime and how much they think intent matters. The law is also inconsistent, with itself, and with the opinions of the citizenry. In this case, US law (but not the laws of all countries) makes sex trafficking and statutory rape strict liabil…

To be precise Stallman argues that lack of mens rea at least should mean that it was not 'assault'.

In another place he also argues that it is not evident that Guiffre had sex with Minsky - she says she was directed to, but she does not say that she eventually did that, the lawyer did ask here where she went to do that and she answered this question but it is quite probable that she misunderstood the question (and instead answered the question where she was directed to do it) and there is a witness who says that Minsky turned her down. It is a fair argument for me.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#332

Post by josteink » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:06 AM UTC

chasing wrote: post #211

What he said was stupid and disgusting. People sometimes over-estimate the amount of latitude the organization they work for will give them to do this. The technology industry is taking baby-steps towards actual inclusivity and diversity of thought -- and not this dumbass "I want to be free to say stupid offensive shit with impunity" flavor of "inclusivity" that people around here seem to champion. That is a Good Thi…

> The technology industry is taking baby-steps towards actual inclusivity and diversity of thought

So lets fire the guy who dares to ask questions about nuances of law.

Gotcha. That's clearly driving "actual" diversity of thought.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#333

Post by ryan_lane » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:06 AM UTC

robocat wrote: post #120

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? It is clear RMS was stunningly clueless to write anything about this, but surely we all know of similar engineers that would make a similar error? If everyone were held up to the same moral standard, we wouldn't have many people left in power! Just to be clear: I'm definitely not supporting hurting children (directly or indirectly) - I hope I'm not falling into the same tar…

Find a few women who've met RMS and ask them about their experience. For years I've been hearing stories from women about RMS that paint a pretty clear picture, and if you look on twitter, there's a number of threads about his abusive behavior towards women. One example: people kept plants around because he hates plants and that made it less likely he'd come around to harass them.

He's discussed his views on pedophilia for a very long time, and this was just the latest on that. It's finally the last straw that was able to bring enough attention on him for action to be taken. It should have been taken decades ago.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#334

Post by eecc » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:08 AM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #252

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

This has nothing to do with technology. If you start expressing opinions about how sex with a sex-trafficked child should be legal, won't your friends and family raise some questions about your character? Unless we're talking of morally flexible individuals. And at least parents should raise an eyebrow, since we have this natural reaction to protect our children. > information wants to be free Whomever said that was…

Well “child”, a 17yo woman doesn’t qualify as “child” unless it’s a curious legal definition.

These kind of comments are clumsy claims to moral authority, useless flame fodder.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#335

Post by rurban » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:08 AM UTC

favorited wrote: post #4

Not unexpected, but I'm surprised it happened so soon after he resigned from MIT/CSAIL. Earlier today the director of the GNOME Foundation requested that RMS resign from the FSF, and said severing ties with the FSF could happen if he didn't step down. https://blog.halon.org.uk/2019/09/gnome-foundation-relations...

GNOME, I knew it. Happy to use xfce only. GNOME is dangerous cancer.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#336

Post by josteink » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:09 AM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #325

chasing wrote: post #211

What he said was stupid and disgusting. People sometimes over-estimate the amount of latitude the organization they work for will give them to do this. The technology industry is taking baby-steps towards actual inclusivity and diversity of thought -- and not this dumbass "I want to be free to say stupid offensive shit with impunity" flavor of "inclusivity" that people around here seem to champion. That is a Good Thi…

If your "inclusivity" stops at Stallman, it seriously lacks performance. You use the wrong word. What you desire is conformity. edit: Additionally, because I think this isn't obvious here, Stallman opened up the knowledge about software to the whole world and put energy in keeping it that way. Anyone was able to profit from this.

> You use the wrong word. What you desire is conformity.

This seems to be a pretty common paradox.

The people who promote "diversity" (and sometimes even diversity of thought!), never accept anyone who wants to debate the nuances of that concept, nor how that may best be implemented.

Basically they demand conformity to the one "diverse" view and their definition of diversity. You're either with them or you're "part of the problem".

You'd think at some point they would notice how they come off ass utterly hypocritical.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#337

Post by input_sh » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:09 AM UTC

mtrower wrote: post #271

lizzard wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Taboos" is an oddly mild way to put this. Why shouldn't a person who approves of raping children have to pause and consider "staying quiet" one wonders.

Please read Richard's actual words again. Read them carefully --- and read his actual words, not just someone summarizing them or stitching fragments out of context. Richard said no such thing.

Except he did:

> P]rostitution, adultery, necrophilia, bestiality, possession of child pornography, and even incest and pedophilia ... should be legal as long as no one is coerced. They are illegal only because of prejudice and narrowmindedness.

Here, June 28th 2003: http://stallman.org/archives/2003-may-aug.html

Or do you believe someone planted it on his website and it went unnoticed for 16 years? How about this:

> Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it.

> Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why.

Posted 3 days ago: https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September...

Does that confirm that he indeed said it?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#338

Post by fooker » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:09 AM UTC

nikdaheratik wrote: post #195

iamnothere wrote: post #43

RMS was defending Minsky, awkwardly. As someone who has a history of social awkwardness, he should be forgiven for this. He's been a good steward of the FSF, which has doing important work in the service of free (read: non-backdoored) hardware lately. I know there are good people still at the FSF, but I can only hope they are as incorruptible and dogged as RMS. The way this attack came suddenly out of the depths make…

If it was just a one-off thing isolated from other recent events, you might be correct. But due to Epstein's association with MIT and his other history of controversial statements and actions with FSF, they couldn't just let him make an apology and hide out for awhile. The fact that this is a more friendly forum than the general public, and yet the majority of people who are sticking up for him here seem to be anonym…

>yet the majority of people who are sticking up for him here seem to be anonymous conspiracy theorists.

Wonder why!

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#339

Post by massaman_yams » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:10 AM UTC

xlii wrote: post #254

I, as many others, never personally liked Dr. Stallman and didn’t agreed with many of his views. That being said, the way that that happened is absolutely terrifying. Fact, that people rather crucify someone instead of argue, explain or prove him wrong is the sign of our times. End of free speech is here. It’s free only if it doesn’t offend group powerful enough to destroy you, and it’s narrowing every single day. We…

Clearly you don't have the full picture. This isn't about a difference of views; it's about a long-standing pattern of inappropriate behavior, including (but not limited to) overtly and deliberately staring at women's breasts in a professional context. There's no innocuous explanation here; this isn't an isolated mistake.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#340

Post by flashman » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:10 AM UTC

smallmancontrov wrote: post #297

xlii wrote: post #254

I, as many others, never personally liked Dr. Stallman and didn’t agreed with many of his views. That being said, the way that that happened is absolutely terrifying. Fact, that people rather crucify someone instead of argue, explain or prove him wrong is the sign of our times. End of free speech is here. It’s free only if it doesn’t offend group powerful enough to destroy you, and it’s narrowing every single day. We…

Terrifying is right. Look at how the telephone game evolved a debate about what Minsky knew or didn't into a defense of child sex trafficking: Stallman: > the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Selam G. > [Stallman] says that an enslaved child could, somehow, be “entirely willing”. VICE: > Stallman insists that the “most plausible scenario” is that Epstein’s underage vic…

Oh my god. That's so chilling. They took his words and accurately reported them. I'm really going to have to watch what I assert is the most plausible scenario about trafficked underage sex slaves.