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Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

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Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#331

Post by iliketocomplain »

rodgerd wrote: post #296
brian-armstrong wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So he was crashing on their couch rent free, and he thanks them by posting crazy screeds on the mailing list? It's not terribly surprising it turned out like this.

His defence of Minsky - that there's nothing wrong with adult men fucking children procured by a child trafficker, because the children like it - was merely the last straw in a long line of obnoxious behaviour, ranging from being angry at people for celebrating having a child, to a spirited enthusiasm for the idea that small children are enthusiastic sexual partners that goes back decades. Moreover, anyone putting in…

He never said that there's nothing wrong with it, which means you're lying. Shame on you. (disclaimer: I dislike Stallman a lot anyway, but this is just a typical SJW witch Hunt. Because he did in fact never say it's ok nor defended it.) Edit: typo

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#332

Post by zenhack »

mindslight wrote: post #287
zenhack wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I really like that article; it articulates a part of the social dynamic that I just don't see talked about enough. But given the sheer scale of screwups here, the number of people's affected, while I have some sympathy for stallman, ultimately I think this one really is his fault -- it's one thing to make some social gaffes now and then. It's another to actively contribute to a toxic enviornment for longer than…

I don't think it gets talked about much because it's a tough topic that seemingly requires acknowledging each tribe, internalizing it, self reflection on your own biases, patience to remain detached, eloquence to express any synthesis achieved, and still often ends up sounding like you're just supporting the "other team" to the "cool nerds"! This whole thread is overwhelmed with bullshit downvotes, presumably from "g…

I suspect part of the reason others are downvoting you is:

1. It's too much suspension of disbelief for them to think that he really could not have been expected to figure this stuff out on his own. 2. Your comments are also lacking any clear acknowledgement of the real harm here, which makes it read like you're just trying to use that link I posted as a defense for him, without engaging with the details of the situation.

I'm not sure how fair I think that reading is, and I think your own explanation for the downvotes is also part of the picture -- but not the whole picture by any means.

Specifically re: this bit:

> is equivalent to supporting toxic patriarchy rape culture or whatever. Really we just don't want to be dragged into their monkeysphere games

What I think this misses is that, regardless of intent, outcomes matter, and by making excuses you do make it easier for the injustices to continue, whether you mean to or not. A lot of guys have a really knee-jerk reaction to the term "rape culture" but the idea it exists to articulate is actually really important, whatever you think of the choice of expression: There are lots of behaviors far short of committing any heinous crimes yourself that add up to contribute to a society where these crimes are allowed to happen. Ironically, this quote commits the same lack of willingness to look past an gripes with the way an idea is presented and actually engage with the idea that lots of folks are pointing to in the reaction to RMS's statements.

I can't prentend to be able to see perfectly into RMS's mind and say what was really going on. It's certainly the case that management (of both MIT and the FSF) enabled him, but I don't think that totally absolves him. But I'm also not really interested in judging him one way another. I wish it hadn't had to come to this, and I hope he learns something from it and makes good use of the rest of his years. But ultimately I'd like to just move forward and keep trying to make things better -- ideally we build an environment where the next guy gets it into his head early on, doesn't make folks miserable for decades on end, and gets to keep his job; everybody wins. But to do that we need to be willing to acknowledge that there was harm here, and not just push the one side of the argument.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#333

Post by zrobotics »

shantly wrote: post #268
zrobotics wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever read Shakespeare's work? Taking things in a vulgar context, especially for humor, is certainly nothing new.

No I mean just refusing to let any mention of some normal use of a word go without taking it that way. I'm reasonably up on my Shakespeare (LOL "up on" LOL) so I know of the joys of double entendre and innuendo. It just seems like any innocent word or phrase that could be taken that way now must be avoided in a way that it didn't have to be as recently as 2-3 decades ago—which is a source of a good deal of humor for…

Fair point, although I think that is a function of society becoming less formal. For instance, much of the lingo in the trades (historically less formal) is purposely slightly vulgar. For example, first thing that comes to mind is male/female terminology for things like sockets & connectors. The terminology only makes sense if one considers it in a vulgar context, and it isn't a recent usage (I've seen repair manuals from the early 20s that use this terminology).

What may make it seem to be changing is that society (or more particularly, white-collar workers & pop culture) has gotten far less formal than it used to be. Even non-tech companies are moving away from suits as required office attire, the only professionals I know personally who still wear suits to the office are lawyers or in the financial industry (which have always had a conservative, slow to change reputation).

Edit: typos & formatting

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#334

Post by vkou »

meowface wrote: post #46
vkou wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been my experience that the people who most loudly defend rational, intellectual, level-headed discussion of reprehensible ideas are often not interested in rational, intellectual, level-headed discussion of how, say, their right to speech or, say, liberty should be restricted. It's an odd twist of irony. Everyone seems to be able to be rational, intellectual, and level-headed, when the issue they are debating…

Your comment is kind of confusing and ambiguous. Could you give an example of what you're referring to? I think any downvotes are probably more due to the crypticness than anything else.

The new RMS thread is a poster child of this. His supporters do not seem particularly interested in a rationed debate about whether or not someone who is bad at public speaking should continue to be employed after being bad at public speaking. Instead, they are busy accusing their opponents of witch-hunting, and of being SJWs.

Odd, that.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#335

Post by joycey »

michaelmrose wrote: post #227
zenhack wrote: post #174

Something that I think most folks in this thread are missing, that's hugely important to what actually happened here: This was not an isolated incident. If it were, I'd look at his comments and write it off as his usual tendency to jump on a minor point and derail a conversation with some totally pedantic technicallity, and I do think the thing he actually said in this case has been wildly mis-interpreted and oversta…

Can you please link some claims of him harassing and propositioning and harassing students?

Here's another example, written before this whole incident: https://twitter.com/corbett/status/994012399656042496

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#336

Post by Liskni_si »

pornel wrote: post #318
amanzi wrote: post #248

I think we should be more worried about the control that media (and especially clickbait-worthy online media) can exert over our lives. It's clear to anyone who has done their research, that his quotes were taken out of context or mis-characterised to create a specific narrative meant to fuel anger and drive visitors to the 'news' websites. It's a real shame that we can no longer discuss certain topics without fear o…

His personal website re-states this opinion clearly (see links in other comments). There was nothing mischaracterised or out of context about this. This time he merely made his opinion more visible, and it ended up being the last straw.

I think it's pretty clear to everyone around here that there's quite a difference between saying "Epstein coerced the girl to present herself as completely willing" and saying "she was completely willing". RMS said the former, Vice, The Daily Beast and other media reported he said the latter.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#337

Post by shantly »

zrobotics wrote: post #333
shantly wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I mean just refusing to let any mention of some normal use of a word go without taking it that way. I'm reasonably up on my Shakespeare (LOL "up on" LOL) so I know of the joys of double entendre and innuendo. It just seems like any innocent word or phrase that could be taken that way now must be avoided in a way that it didn't have to be as recently as 2-3 decades ago—which is a source of a good deal of humor for…

Fair point, although I think that is a function of society becoming less formal. For instance, much of the lingo in the trades (historically less formal) is purposely slightly vulgar. For example, first thing that comes to mind is male/female terminology for things like sockets & connectors. The terminology only makes sense if one considers it in a vulgar context, and it isn't a recent usage (I've seen repair manuals…

Entertainment media's driven a lot of it, I think, for whatever reason. Generations X and Y have tended to make catching accidental (and not even especially interesting) double entendres a prominent feature of the humor-media they've (we've) created in a way it wasn't (yes, some, but not so constantly) before. Earliest example I can think of that did a lot of this is Beavis & Butthead, but it's been all over the place since then. I'm not sure reduced formality's behind the presence of so much of that in media, all of the sudden.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#338

Post by balaksakrionon »

primroot wrote: post #90
esotericn wrote: post #16

Is anyone else baffled by the idea that discussing something on an intellectual level, even related to a person, has to somehow be a 'defense' or an 'offense'? I've spent basically my entire life discussing things in the abstract. I'm not a politician, I don't make laws, and frankly I wouldn't want that power. To me it makes absolute sense that someone would attempt to "defend" even the most heinous person. It's weir…

This is a quote from an interview, where Norman Finkelstein discusses the subject of thought policing. "What he should have done was in my opinion deliver one policy speech. 'This is where we stand on antisemitism. This is where we stand on the mechanisms for dealing with antisemitism in our party. Case closed.' The other major mistake he made was .. a complete abandonment of the principle of free speech. People have…

Thanks for sharing this, quite timely in this context

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#339

Post by balaksakrionon »

pvaldes wrote: post #307
zbaylin wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has resigned from the FSF https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns

Hum, this had escalated quickly, with all the fake news and duck hunting and the strange patterns seen in the last months about how we need a better name for gimp, for moral reasons none less, how great is that apple has now an equivalent to 'festival' and other small strange things. Open source is in a really complicated moment for its survival. Is like we would had arrived to a sort ot 'extinguish and replace' phas…

Has there been renewed chatter for possibly renaming GIMP? I have been out of the loop but it would be such a shame for the program to be renamed

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#340

Post by vkou »

iliketocomplain wrote: post #331
rodgerd wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His defence of Minsky - that there's nothing wrong with adult men fucking children procured by a child trafficker, because the children like it - was merely the last straw in a long line of obnoxious behaviour, ranging from being angry at people for celebrating having a child, to a spirited enthusiasm for the idea that small children are enthusiastic sexual partners that goes back decades. Moreover, anyone putting in…

He never said that there's nothing wrong with it, which means you're lying. Shame on you. (disclaimer: I dislike Stallman a lot anyway, but this is just a typical SJW witch Hunt. Because he did in fact never say it's ok nor defended it.) Edit: typo

He has, on record, said that he thinks there is nothing wrong with statutory rape 'as long as both parties consent'.

I'm not sure he understands the concept of consent.

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