8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now • Hacker News Board

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#331

Post by thinkingemote » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 9:00 PM UTC

codysan wrote: post #263

adrusi wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've stumbled upon one of the most important and difficult cultural questions of our generation. I don't claim to have a robust theory, but I'll throw out an idea: 4chan becomes a place to say edgy racist things in order to get a rise out of people because it's amusing. Most people don't actually believe the racist things they say, but now saying racist things is normalized on the site, and it becomes more…

Seems pretty robust to me. The "edginess" thing makes sense when you realize 4chan is made up of 13 year old boys.

You've got it understandably wrong as it's actually made up of grown adults but acting as if they were 13 year olds. It's an important difference if you think about it.

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#332

Post by belorn » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 9:02 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #322

mikelyons wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What causes the much higher incidence of homelessness in males compared to females?

They are more likely to fit into risk factor profile: more likely to have mental disease. They are more likely to be veterans. More likely to be addicted addictions or disabled. Also more likely to be violent or aggressive and thus kicked from legit places to live. More likely to have criminal record. The whole "on average men take their aggression against others women again themselves" in this aspect hurt men more.…

So many myths. In order:

"Overall rates of psychiatric disorder are almost identical for men and women" - https://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/genderwomen/en/

"Women are just as likely as men to develop a substance use disorder". - Anthony JC, Warner LA, Kessler RC. Comparative epidemiology of dependence on tobacco, alcohol, controlled substances, and inhalants

"But when subsequent surveys asked who struck first, it turned out that women were as likely as men to initiate violence—a finding confirmed by more than 200 studies of intimate violence" - https://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

The only wholy true points is that men tend to be more likely veterans, for which accounts for 10% of the homeless, and more likely criminals, but the majority of offenses for which they are arrested are for public intoxication, followed by theft/shoplifting, violation of city ordinances, and burglary.

"The findings challenge the depiction of homeless men as serious predatory criminals, and suggest a number of theoretical and policy implications." - https://www.jstor.org/stable/3096817?seq=1#page_scan_tab_con...

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#333

Post by resoluteteeth » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 9:07 PM UTC

DuskStar wrote: post #312

resoluteteeth wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American right believes that it needs guns to protect itself from the government and is terrified that the left will come to take its guns away. This has gotten more and more extreme to the point that they are now basically against any gun control laws including restrictions on machine guns or any sort of background checks.

> This has gotten more and more extreme to the point that they are now basically against any gun control laws including restrictions on machine guns or any sort of background checks. You are aware that ownership of machine guns is both extremely restricted and rather expensive, while almost all legal gun transfers require a background check, right? (The transfers that don't require a background check are private sale…

> Or are you saying that people want these restrictions to be rolled back?

This.

As far as I am aware, the NRA is now believes people should be able to own fully automatic weapons although that wasn't always their position.

(And they obviously are against restrictions on semiautomatic weapons since their California division had sued the government about them.)

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#334

Post by jcranmer » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 9:08 PM UTC

fit2rule wrote: post #318

jcranmer wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the United Arab Republic turned out so well... For the countries you list, the only time in history that they ever were all in the same country was a brief period during the Abbasid Caliphate, which quickly broke apart. There is a lot of bad blood between Persians and Levantine Arabs that is going to prevent any sort of stable long-term stability.

I think you're just proving my point. Justifications such as you proffer do nothing to convince me otherwise: We in the West are very xenophobic when it comes to assessing those nations we've destroyed in the last 20 years. We're not really being fair about such propositions as 'long term stability', really, when we do everything we can to make sure the region stays unstable...

If you're trying to project the future of the Middle East based solely off of knowledge of the last 20 years, you are very well out of your depth. The Middle East is a region of immense history--we can count back over 5000 years of recorded history--and people can nurse grievances accumulated over that span of time, especially as they are emphasized and deemphasized in mythmaking.

Ever since the rise of nationalism in the Long 19th Century, and the collapse of the multiethnic empires that ended it, the ability to forge a common national identity has been the key to state survival. There is no hard and fast guideline to how to do so, and so it can be perplexing as to why Languedocs and Bretons can feel affinity in a French state whereas Serbs and Croats cannot feel affinity in a Yugoslav state--especially since, I will note, the first two groups do not speak the same language (at least, pre-French Revolution) but the latter two do!

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#335

Post by stefco_ » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #325

stefco_ wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Men are still, to a huge extent, discouraged from sharing and expressing their emotions as much as women (since that behavior is seen as inherently feminine). People still make fun of guys for crying and other healthy ways of expressing distress. The "strong silent type" still seems to be many people's masculine ideal. This is exacerbated on hate-filled sites like 4chan and 8chan, where guys who express feeling…

> When men on 8chan start buying into racist ideology and feeling like they can only express their distress through anger and violence, it seems inevitable that things like shootings will follow. I agree, but there is even more to this part. The Nazi ideology was not just about superiority, about also about struggle between races for power and need to win that struggle. You have to fight for your own and prove superi…

Right, yes, That’s what I meant: it’s advantageous for fascist agitators to encourage traditional repressive masculinity for the reasons you outline. Being susceptible to it makes you useful to fascists.

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#336

Post by noobermin » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

eej2ya1K wrote: post #134

noobermin wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't really my experience. "Jokes" didn't lead people to becoming racist or white supremacist. What it did do though is make people who were actually white supremacist come in and try to spread their ideologies and win people over to their side, so they could convince a fraction, probably the minority of posters, to actually believing it, and eventually their numbers grew. The idea that people turned into whit…

I agree, I was responding to chvid's specific questions about how you go from jokes to becoming a true believer. I don't think that's something that happens to every joker, troll or shitposter - not even the majority.

Sorry, I should have read your comment more carefully. I do agree with you here.

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#337

Post by watwut » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #332

watwut wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are more likely to fit into risk factor profile: more likely to have mental disease. They are more likely to be veterans. More likely to be addicted addictions or disabled. Also more likely to be violent or aggressive and thus kicked from legit places to live. More likely to have criminal record. The whole "on average men take their aggression against others women again themselves" in this aspect hurt men more.…

So many myths. In order: "Overall rates of psychiatric disorder are almost identical for men and women" - https://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/genderwomen/en/ "Women are just as likely as men to develop a substance use disorder" . - Anthony JC, Warner LA, Kessler RC. Comparative epidemiology of dependence on tobacco, alcohol, controlled substances, and inhalants "But when subsequent surveys asked who struck f…

1.) Interesting that you changed violence to intimate violence. As if there were equal number of women killing people (it is not) or being gang members (nope violent gangs are not dome kind of equality panacea). As if women were equally likely to get into fight in bars, clubs, schools you name it. Whether biological or social, men are more likely to be violent. And they are more likely to cause higher damage due to bigger strength.

2.) Crime record makes it harder to find housing and job and access social services. That includes shoplifting and other similar records.

3.) And of course, you use study that casts addiction so wide, that it is compeletely irrelevant. Smoking is not relevant addiction to homelessness.

Here is study about substances - you used last sentence of paragraph, but it is preceeded by: Men are more likely than women to use almost all types of illicit drugs,13 and illicit drug use is more likely to result in emergency department visits or overdose deaths for men than for women. "Illicit" refers to use of illegal drugs, including marijuana (according to federal law) and misuse of prescription drugs. For most age groups, men have higher rates of use or dependence on illicit drugs and alcohol than do women. However, women are just as likely as men to develop a substance use disorder.

So like, totally.

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#338

Post by paulddraper » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 9:23 PM UTC

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #288

irvwash wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm guessing/assuming that 8chan is an anything goes censorship free community (like 4chan was/is?). And maybe it's not explicitly in support of racist ideals but instead refuses to condemn any ideologies or discussion More or less. More so than 4chan. 8chan is like Reddit (and unlike 4chan) in that it allows anyone to set up a subcommunity that they can moderate however they like. Only illegal content (and nude/se…

Think about that for a min. Racism is allowed, but not Spam. They will allow Racism, but actively moderate out Spam. What type of joke is this? There is no hiding behind it, they intentionally and actively allow it to become a breeding ground for violent racists. It's like what in the world did you guys imagining Al Qaeda recruiting msg boards l look like. "No Al Qaeda msg boards have people claiming for death to Ame…

> They will allow Racism, but actively moderate out Spam

Moderating "racist" comments is very far from straightforward. No one can agree what it would be.

Which of the following statements would be racist?

1. Organizations whose members are exclusively white are appropriate.

2. Organizations whose members are exclusively people of color are appropriate.

3. Blacks are a minority but commit a majority of violent crimes in the U.S.

4. Average height varies by race.

5. Average IQ varies by race.

6. Nigeria is a hellhole.

7. South Africa is a hellhole.

8. I prefer not to date blacks.

---

Even Reddit bans spam but not racism.

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#339

Post by iamnothere » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #316

iamnothere wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually Germany had strict hate speech laws and worked hard to prevent the Nazis from rising to power. From this article: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/copenhagen-speech-v... Weimar Germany did have hate-speech laws, and they were applied quite frequently. The assertion that Nazi propaganda played a significant role in mobilizing anti-Jewish sentiment is, of course, irrefutable. But to claim that the Holo…

[flagged]

> I don't know why you lie, but you do.

I hate to invoke HN guidelines, but this accusation violates "Assume good faith".

Here's another source, this time from the National Review:

Remarkably, pre-Hitler Germany had laws very much like the Canadian anti-hate law. Moreover, those laws were enforced with some vigour. During the 15 years before Hitler came to power, there were more than 200 prosecutions based on anti-Semitic speech. And, in the opinion of the leading Jewish organization of that era, no more than 10 per cent of the cases were mishandled by the authorities. As subsequent history so painfully testifies, this type of legislation proved ineffectual on the one occasion when there was a real argument for it.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/reasonable-restriction...

So now you have both the Atlantic and the National Review claiming this. Are they both mistaken? Lying?

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#340

Post by codysan » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 9:31 PM UTC

thinkingemote wrote: post #331

codysan wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems pretty robust to me. The "edginess" thing makes sense when you realize 4chan is made up of 13 year old boys.

You've got it understandably wrong as it's actually made up of grown adults but acting as if they were 13 year olds. It's an important difference if you think about it.

I wasn’t kidding, it’s truly full of 13 year olds. There are certainly grown adults, but I don’t think people don’t realize how many kids use 4chan. Back when I was a teenager, I thought I was cool as fuck for knowing about 4chan and all my e-friends were just as deluded and 14 as I was.