France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US • Hacker News Board

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#331

Post by AdrianB1 » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:16 PM UTC

JAlexoid wrote: post #233

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do though? > https://sellercentral-europe.amazon.com/forums/t/been-charge... > https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/201748700?...

VAT is an interesting one, since Amazon isn't even affected by VAT. It's easy to reduce VAT liability altogether. This tax is a crude corporate income tax replacement.

Amazon cannot go around VAT, it is paying it in full to the state; Amazon's customer can deduct VAT if the customer is a business and it is using the product in the production of other products or services that are sold and VAT is collected. The state collects VAT in the end, no matter what.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#332

Post by ljm » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #15

I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses. The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skill…

As much as I loathe to word it way, the public resource is the French citizen. Or, the citizen of the country.

If Amazon bypasses it with gig economy logic then they are depriving the country of tax they would have paid through traditional means.

Amazon owes tax to France for as long as it maintains a workforce out there. They shouldn’t be able to dodge it by treating employees as contractors or having offices in Luxembourg.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#333

Post by charlesdm » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

opportune wrote: post #284

eurg wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

increasing taxes makes tax-reduction-strategies _more_ profitable, not less also, tax-evasion and tax-reduction are two different things, equating them is an argument in bad faith

>tax-evasion and tax-reduction are two different things, equating them is an argument in bad faith I beg to differ, the only difference is that one is by definition illegal and the other is by definition legal. Tax reduction can mean chasing tax incentives responsibly, which is fine, but can also mean deliberately engaging in weird financial engineering that violates the spirit of the law but not the letter. Like if…

To each their own view, but the more wealth someone builds up, the more complex their tax affairs become. Especially if operating internationally. The 401k example is good for a normal employee.

But what if I have businesses in Poland, the UK and Belgium and I can book my investment gains in either of those countries? Am I evading tax because I book it in the country with the lowest taxes? No. You'd be crazy to book it in the highest tax county if you have the freedom to not do so.

The spirit of the law is an extremely hairy discussion, exactly because different people have different views on this. In my view only the exact letter of the law can be interpreted as a set of rules to determine whether you're breaking the law or not.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#334

Post by AdrianB1 » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #191

rtkwe wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich. Companies like google can charge their profitable branches in other countries royalties to use Google software or platform moving the profits out of a higher tax country like France into Ireland where there's little to no tax. Even after they patched the Dutch part that allowed even the marginal Irish taxes to be avoided companies can still artificially lower their profit by transf…

Has any country explored options for shifting to a revenue tax to eliminate such games entirely?

It is done intentionally by countries like Ireland that otherwise would have zero interest from any investors. And this loophole is actually the foundation of the EU free market: you can produce something in a country, sell in another one, pay VAT in the destination country but pay profit taxes in the origin country. What France and others want is to pay profit taxes also in the destination country, on top of VAT.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#335

Post by easyat » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #258

colechristensen wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An easy rebuff to the US is simple: if they are American companies, why aren't they paying American taxes on their European business activities?

They are. The US taxes companies on profits made abroad. The issue is that these taxes are only collected when the money enters th US, so companies park this money abroad.

Lest we forget tax holidays where congress allows repatriation of funds for the taxes they would pay. Vastly lowering actual taxes paid

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#336

Post by AdrianB1 » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:22 PM UTC

beowulfey wrote: post #248

bko wrote: post #15

I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses. The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skill…

You don't understand it because it is strictly a philosophical difference of yours. You operate in the paradigm of taxation == fees or penalties imposed on people and corporations by the goverment. It is seen as strictly a negative thing. The opposite idea is that taxation is an /investment/ by corporations and individuals, directed and designed by the government, to allow society to keep running smoothly. You may no…

Taxation is mandatory and evading taxation is punished by prison in most cases. Investments are optional and not investing does not carry prison sentences. It's the same difference between consensual sex and rape: the consent.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#337

Post by AdrianB1 » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

braythwayt wrote: post #239

bko wrote: post #15

I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses. The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skill…

With respect, you do not understand the logic behind taxes, much less the logic behind taxing international businesses. > The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service You are framing taxes as if the government is a business selling people health care, fire protection, security, and infrastructure. I benefit from infrastructure I don't personally use. For example, even if I a…

The flaw of this argument that government is selling services is that the government is not selling, it is forcibly collecting money for some vague promises of services. When you buy something in the store the owner doesn't point a gun at your head asking for the money.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#338

Post by AdrianB1 » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

ljm wrote: post #332

bko wrote: post #15

I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses. The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skill…

As much as I loathe to word it way, the public resource is the French citizen. Or, the citizen of the country. If Amazon bypasses it with gig economy logic then they are depriving the country of tax they would have paid through traditional means. Amazon owes tax to France for as long as it maintains a workforce out there. They shouldn’t be able to dodge it by treating employees as contractors or having offices in Lux…

Amazon is paying taxes for the employees in France; when using contractors, the contractors pay their taxes there. This law is about something else.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#339

Post by smolder » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

colpabar wrote: post #310

forty wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(replying to sibling) Some do. Source: I'm French and I do :)

Out of curiosity, would you say most French people think the same way? I ask because I'm American and we really hate taxes here.

I'm American and I support the French doing this. Some Americans "hate taxes", but I have enough money. What I don't have is enough control in a country ruled by oligarchs and corporate fiefdoms. Governance is all about fostering a healthy society, by balancing incentives and disincentives. If you don't do that actively and carefully, curbing abuse and exploitation, then they grow to a breaking point.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#340

Post by bjelkeman-again » Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

colpabar wrote: post #310

forty wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(replying to sibling) Some do. Source: I'm French and I do :)

Out of curiosity, would you say most French people think the same way? I ask because I'm American and we really hate taxes here.

I am not French, but Swedish, We have similar total tax burden. In general Swedes accept taxes. As it pays for: education, childcare, healthcare, a functional bureaucracy, defence, police and legal system etc. If you don’t get those or they don’t function well, then I can see that people are more hesitant.

But there is a cultural difference too. Many (most?) people around me accept that we pay for some freeloaders, as long as we also manage to protect and help those that really need it.

It seems to work [1] which is why we accept the taxes (more or less).

[1] Sweden scores high in most indexes trying to measure these things.