Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job • Hacker News Board

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#331

Post by vharuck » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 5:12 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #219

derefr wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion' So the “practical” solution is to change human nature? That doesn’t sound right. It’d be like saying that the practical solution to human trafficking is for people to stop visiting prostitutes; or that the solution to gangs’ drug income is for people to stop buying drugs. In all these cases, you can quash su…

>In this case, the demand is “the ability to express myself to a huge audience.” People are willing to pay to do that. Because of that, they see any job where they get to do it as a net positive, even if the job is horrible. This is true for any job that is just an extension of a hobby. People put on local community theater productions in their spare time because they find it fun and fulfilling. You don't have to pay…

> People spend countless hours working on open source software for free just because they like it.

Some people create or contribute as part of their job. If the job requires new software, the company doesn't want to sell the software, and the developer thinks others could use it, then why not open source?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#332

Post by z3phyr » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 5:12 PM UTC

These problems could go away if games are considered an extension of software industry instead of the grey area of art/media.

Also, the barrier to entry into games is very low. This leads to mass influction of less than capable people, who still wrongly dream of making games.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#333

Post by prophesi » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #141

hnarn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see a lot of anti-union talk on HN That's because most people on HN are from the U.S. where a century of propaganda has convinced most people not only that poor people are lazy, but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. While this propaganda has a minority basis in reality in some cases, as all propaganda will have because propaganda can't be 100% fantas…

>but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. That's because, in the US, it's all true, historically. Auto unions were a big reason why Detroit's automakers were so uncompetitive against the Japanese automakers in the 80s; autoworkers got ridiculous pay for menial work, which is why Detroit moved a lot of their production to Mexico and Canada, and other automak…

Just a minor note: Our terrible public transit is due to our society revolving around the motto "a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage." In my city, you can find overpasses that were purposely designed to not let buses fit through to further emphasize how "terrible" public transit is, and how we all need our own car. Those with money & power then moved into the Suburbs, and thereby even more legislation was made to ease suburbian transit.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#334

Post by ghaff » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #329

jackfraser wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you _really_ think your photography job deserves the same hourly wage as an engineer or manager?

What quality freelance developer or manager in the US takes 4 hour jobs for even close to $25 per hour, in a customer choosen location?

I think his gist is that, of course a developer should expect to be paid more than that because they're special. But photographers just click pictures so they should be grateful to make anything at all.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#335

Post by bena » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #322

bena wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider this though, he's not doing that now. He did that when he was young, dumb, and full of dreams... He couldn't sustain that lifestyle. We do sort of glorify the past and lionize struggle as if there were some nobility to it. There's not. There's no inherent nobility in struggling or being ignorant. Being a dumb kid willing to work awful hours for worse pay to get out a demo in time is not an ideal to strive to…

I agree substantially with the first 3 paragraphs of your post and have way less agreement with the last paragraph. [0] Just to be perfectly clear though: I'm glad I did it, have zero regrets, do find nobility in working a crunch period to ship [a demo] on-time as you promised you would [I was tech lead; that we weren't in a position to ship on-time without a crunch time was at least 50% on my shoulders], and would h…

You got out before you found your limit. You think you could have sustained it, but you really don't know because you left. But leaving also means something.

And succeeding in the face of adversity is something to be proud of. There are many things I wouldn't change in my life even though they were difficult or caused me to struggle.

That's not the point.

If I could have learned all I learned, got to where I am, etc _without_ having to struggle, that would have been preferable. The struggle itself imparts no value.

I mean, would you rather have not had to crunch to get the demo out on time? Would you rather have hit all of your targets on time without working ridiculous hours?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#336

Post by Glyptodon » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

I don't really understand why unions are the answer to what should be basic and universal ethical labor standards.

Because, what, if you aren't in a union or unionized job you don't deserve to get treated decently? Because industries where unions and workers have less leverage should be able to treat workers worse? Or is the union thing just a reaction to lack of faith in other institutions?

I don't hate unions, but I don't get them either. And I often suspect that structurally they're much more incentivized to containerize reforms rather than universalize them.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#337

Post by wolco » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

lacey wrote: post #272

ghaff wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See also photography, writing, art, etc. Some professionals are in fact resentful to greater or lesser degrees of amateurs willing to work for free (either just for fun or because it's useful to them professionally for reputational or other reasons). I asked a journalist I knew whether he minded the fact that people like myself publish articles/blogs for free in publications that also have paid staff/freelancers. His…

I’m a photographer by hobby and you very often see people wanting to hire someone good but who isn’t expecting to make a living at it with offers like “I’ll let you shoot my event to help build your portfolio, and all you have to do is give me a copy of all the photos.” Or alternatively offering something like $100 for four hours to do lifestyle street shoots. I don’t know how often they are successful at getting pho…

25 an hour might be a good rate for someone starting out. I do programming work that takes that long and charge less than that amount.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#338

Post by SilasX » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

In economics, there's the concept of a compensating differential[1]: when two jobs require the same skill and training, but one has an unpleasant aspect, so you have to pay people more to take that one.

The canonical example would be window washers on the ground level vs for a high-rise building. The latter -- even with appropriate safety measures -- is scarier, so they make more, as people willing to go up in those things are harder to find.

You can also have a negative compensating differential, where the job is so desirable that people take a lower wage to work in it, which is what's going on in the game industry; compared to developers and QA for other industries, they make less.

Another example might be astronauts, which make a lot less compared jobs requiring similar qualifications (i.e. extensive education, training, memorization, and fitness).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compensating_differential

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#339

Post by odessacubbage » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

ben509 wrote: post #233

derefr wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion' So the “practical” solution is to change human nature? That doesn’t sound right. It’d be like saying that the practical solution to human trafficking is for people to stop visiting prostitutes; or that the solution to gangs’ drug income is for people to stop buying drugs. In all these cases, you can quash su…

> So the “practical” solution is to change human nature? We could at least stop giving young people terrible advice like, "you can do anything, live your dream!" "Get a practical job to pay the bills, and do your dream as a side gig," is a pretty reasonable compromise. Most people are have a low tolerance for risk and it's a problem when they get into a field that requires being a risk taker. That tolerance for risk…

i think maybe better advice is "work really really hard and find the closest commercially viable approximation to your dream"

there are plenty of stable, well paying jobs for all sorts of different skill sets in the entertainment industry. becoming a key grip or an audio engineer isn't a high risk career trajectory. the bigger problem with creative fields is that most of the advice kids are getting is misinformation coming from people who have to idea what the industry actually entails. the quality of art education in the us is fucking abysmal. imagine if you had english teachers who only cared about slam poetry and discouraged students from learning functional writing skills or a music teacher who never taught meter. i never had a single art teacher who taught any representative drawing fundamentals or even hinted at what was required to become an employable commercial artist. anything even remotely representative or commercial was frowned upon.

>Putting out advice, "don't do risky stuff" also doesn't harm real risk-takers because they won't take that advice anyway.

maybe but when you're only ever told not to do something it doesn't exactly give you a strong footing to take smart risks and further sets up passionate but under informed kids to be exploited because no one ever taught them how to value their work.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#340

Post by samstave » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

Also, there are a crap ton of people who think lazily: “i love playing video games / i am so good at playing video games, that i should be a game designer. Look at how stupid these developers are compared to me!!”

Ive known several of this type. And they are terrible at understanding the grueling tediousness it takes to develop a good game.

Basically they operate on the superficial end of things and think they can grok the actual reqs to develop something.

(Same thing with pipe dream “app designers”)