Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon • Hacker News Board

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#331

Post by psadauskas » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

marricks wrote: post #272

psadauskas wrote: post #211

How about going after Comcast and Verizon first, the actual tech monopolies ? I already don’t use Facebook, I buy things online from places other than Amazon, and have email accounts that aren’t hosted by Google. However, all of that goes over Comcast’s network because that’s my only viable choice for Internet service. Also, while FAANG occasionally do things I don’t approve of, they don’t actively lobby congress for…

Why not both? Dumping on someone’s policy because you don’t who they target first doesn’t really help. God knows I’d trust her to break up ISPs before pretty much any other candidate.

I'm not "dumping" on her policy, I'm dumping on her choice of targets. I'm not happy about the App Store monopoly, but I'm actually upset at Comcast's behavior in every area they do business.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#332

Post by basch » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #321

apcragg wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that none of those examples dominate their market. The problem isn't "Amazon uses their platform to promote their own products" it's "Amazon uses their market dominance to promote their own products which might not otherwise be competitive"

dominating the market and holding a monopoly are not the same thing. Amazon has a dominant position in many markets, but are not a monopoly on any market unless you re-define the market to be amazon's portion of it. Does amazon have a retail monopoly? absolutely not. An online retail monopoly? still no. An online book selling monopoly? okay, now we're getting closer but still not a monopoly. A kindle books monopoly?…

there is much more to anti-trust than just monopolies. theres a whole slew of anti competitive behavior.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#333

Post by basch » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:09 PM UTC

mushufasa wrote: post #330

fanzhang wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, does the public have the image of Comcast and Verizon CEOs as being specific people who are really rich and dislikable? So that taking them down a notch will make the public happy? And so taking them down a notch is a good political stance? To be fair, I think there is some argument that some of the larger tech giants would benefit consumer welfare by being broken up. Facebook probably less so since people alre…

In the past couple years, a new legal theory proposed that the definition of monopoloy needs to be updated for the 21st century. Instead of focusing on consumer welfare, antitrust law should focus on 'anticompetitive behavior'. In this argument, amazon is the platform through which all other online sellers go to market, like railroads in the late 19th century. Behaving as both a platform and participant is anticompet…

The original paper is pretty readable, the NYT article doesnt really add anything but context. https://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/amazons-antitrust-parado...

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#334

Post by burroisolator » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:12 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #105

geofft wrote: post #58

This is an excellent goal, and Paul Graham has articulated the reasoning pretty clearly: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/886953410356011008 > Here's how to explain to people the distinction between fighting poverty and fighting economic inequality. If you're fighting poverty, you might say "Let's have universal health care." If you're fighting economic inequality, you have to say "Let's have universal health care. A…

I think the first remedy should be prevent acquisitions after companies grow past certain size. Google, Amazon, Facebook and Apple innovated at their own in the beginning, but once the cash from network externalities started to pour in, they stared to buy market share and buy into the markets. Google did not invent Gmail (Postini), Android Inc, YouTube, AdSense (Adscape), Google Analytics (Trendalyzer), Google Maps (…

Don't forget DoubleClick in addition to Trendalyzer for Google Analytics.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

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Post by Bhilai » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:12 PM UTC

e1ven wrote: post #323

Bhilai wrote: post #318

What about closing Tax loopholes, such that Apple and Amazon pay their fair share and Netflix does not pay zero tax ?

There are a million other things which should also be done. Saying "What about these other things?" isn't particularly constructive to the discussion of this proposal. There's nothing in it which precludes changes to the tax structure as a separate proposal.

To clarify, what I mean here is that there may be other things that should probably be prioritized over splitting tech giants. There is usually limited political capital a POTUS has and if Warren had the votes, in my opinion fixing tax structure should higher on her list.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#336

Post by andromeduck » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

natej wrote: post #282

JackFr wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In amazons case they unfairly use their market position to begin offering amazon private label products on their platform. They know what users are looking for, spend the most on, and they can give their own products dominate positions in the UI. 1) How is that different than a department store? If you go into housewares at Macy's you'll see their own branded stuff along with other brands. So at issue is not the pr…

On #1 I too had the same question, but I think the difference there is that department/grocery stores are re-sellers. They've already bought the goods from the third-party and are choosing to re-sell it at a markup. Amazon on the otherhand is a platform which only enables the initial sale.

That's not really how it works anymore. It depends on the product type but often brands pay for shelf space and unsold goods are refunded.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#337

Post by davidgay » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #193

thr_w wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. This avoids the common argument against socialism removing incentives to success, while still providing social safety nets. Allow people to succeed, but when they do, tax them and regulate them to benefit the less fortunate members of society. The rich got rich in part because of the protections and services afforded them by our modern society. In having reaped a greater share of benefit, why should they not…

The argument that there won't be incentives for success is and has always been ludicrous. It's not based in any kind of empirical reality, just on an emotional theory that people won't work if you tax them more, and an Ayn Rand novel or two. The reality is that people compete for status, success, money, and power, within the framework they are given. I mean we've actually tried this. If you take a group of incredibly…

I'm not sure that a country without capital gain taxes (Switzerland) is the best example for highly taxing successful business founders...

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#338

Post by rayiner » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

streblo wrote: post #308

rayiner wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That odd SV myopia. The trend in broadband has been more competition. Verizon competes with Comcast in almost its entire FiOS service area. These days it also competes with cellular—15% (and growing) of households have abandoned wired broadband in favor of cellular. There are four major cellular providers. In tech, the trend has been in the other direction. If you don’t consider Sprint a viable competitor to AT&T, wh…

> The trend in broadband has been more competition. In the past decade I've lived in three different cities, and in each one Comcast was the only provider available. Do we really not think Comcast has a monopoly?

Google has 90% search market share--Comcast doesn't have that even in areas where it is the sole high-speed wired provider (because DSL and cellular are viable alternatives for a significant part of the population). And over large swaths of its service area it isn't the only high-speed wired option. I don't know where you're located, but I've lived in Chicago, Atlanta, DC, Baltimore, Annapolis, New York, and Philadelphia over the last decade. Each place except Baltimore has multiple providers. And Comcast competes with cellular everywhere.

If you take the view that cellular or DSL aren't legitimate competition (despite having double-digit marketshare even where Comcast has no other competition), then Bing and Yahoo! aren't competition for Google either. In which case Google has a nationwide monopoly in search.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#339

Post by JackFr » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

pdabbadabba wrote: post #235

JackFr wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In amazons case they unfairly use their market position to begin offering amazon private label products on their platform. They know what users are looking for, spend the most on, and they can give their own products dominate positions in the UI. 1) How is that different than a department store? If you go into housewares at Macy's you'll see their own branded stuff along with other brands. So at issue is not the pr…

> 1) How is that different than a department store? If you go into housewares at Macy's you'll see their own branded stuff along with other brands. So at issue is not the practice itself, but rather that the digital marketplace makes it easier and more efficient. The difference would be Amazon's [alleged] monopoly power. > 2) The consumer (along with Amazon) is a beneficiary here. The losers are brands trying to sell…

> What happens ten years down the road when those brands are gone due to Amazon's allegedly benevolent undercutting?

It doesn't matter. The power strips are still being manufactured at the same factory in China.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#340

Post by weberc2 » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

psadauskas wrote: post #327

rayiner wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That odd SV myopia. The trend in broadband has been more competition. Verizon competes with Comcast in almost its entire FiOS service area. These days it also competes with cellular—15% (and growing) of households have abandoned wired broadband in favor of cellular. There are four major cellular providers. In tech, the trend has been in the other direction. If you don’t consider Sprint a viable competitor to AT&T, wh…

It would be odd if it were SV myopia, since I'm 1000 miles from there. In 90% of Denver Metro, your choice is Comcast or 1.5mbit CenturyLink. I just bought a house in a new neighborhood, and one of the major selling points was that both CenturyLink and Comcast offer 1gbit service. CenturyLink's service costs about 3/4 of Comcast, and Comcast's service here is already about 1/2 of what they change for gigabit in other…

I've got that SV myopia here in Chicago too ;)