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H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

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Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#331

Post by SamReidHughes »

fzeroracer wrote: post #330
SamReidHughes wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'm not talking about American culture, I'm talking about any country taking in immigrants, and general reasons to object to it. It certainly isn't economics-only. (America has already undergone this process in many waves, e.g. when non-Quakers took over Pennsylvania, or when Californians move to Idaho.)

This is a thread and topic about America and immigration in America. To suddenly shift and say that you're somehow not talking about American culture seems rather incredibly disingenuous. And that said, a culture does not deserve to live by virtue of existing. It's protectionism and xenophobia, founded purely because of fears that immigrants will somehow replace your culture with something you view as being lesser. T…

Well I certainly object to the destruction of America’s culture too, but the construction of geofft’s argument is that categorically he could only think of one possible objection to immigration.

And it’s not an irrational fear. It’s a very obvious fact that America with wide open borders would be a worse place for existing Americans to live, just look at the average country and ask if Americans would like to live there, and why not.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#332

Post by fzeroracer »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #331
fzeroracer wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a thread and topic about America and immigration in America. To suddenly shift and say that you're somehow not talking about American culture seems rather incredibly disingenuous. And that said, a culture does not deserve to live by virtue of existing. It's protectionism and xenophobia, founded purely because of fears that immigrants will somehow replace your culture with something you view as being lesser. T…

Well I certainly object to the destruction of America’s culture too, but the construction of geofft’s argument is that categorically he could only think of one possible objection to immigration. And it’s not an irrational fear. It’s a very obvious fact that America with wide open borders would be a worse place for existing Americans to live, just look at the average country and ask if Americans would like to live the…

I don't believe it's a very obvious fact at all, considering America has had very lax borders in the past and I would not describe it as being a far worse place to live. If you're going to describe something as an obvious fact, how about you back up your obvious fact with citations or data? Otherwise then yes, it would be an irrational fear.

And I would imagine the converse is true: If you asked anyone in another first world country if they would like to live in America, I would bet you'd see the results end up rather negative. Especially after the past few years of nonsense we've exhibited to the rest of the world.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#333

Post by snotrockets »

untog wrote: post #71
baby wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a one-sided point of view. Imagine that you're immigrating to a country, and after a few years you get fire, or you want to take a sabbatical, or you want to change industry for a lower paying job. Now under your rules you cannot do that. What do you do? You've created your life in the US, you have friends, perhaps a girlfriend, maybe even a house. Now you have to leave?

(I say this as someone who lived in the US on a visa for years) That's part of the deal. Any immigrant arriving on a visa knows what they've signed up for, and it doesn't involve taking a sabbatical. It also really should not involve buying a house, if you're being sensible. Being fired 100% sucks, but you can transfer an H1B to a new employer. H1B is at least a dual intent visa, so after some years you can apply for…

The second you are fired, you no longer have an H1B to transfer (usually USCIS allows transferring even if there is a short lapse, but this isn't guaranteed, and during that lapse, the visa holder is actually the US illegally)

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#334

Post by m0zg »

airstrike wrote: post #246
m0zg wrote: post #102

Posted this elsewhere, but as a former H1B here's what should be done to end abuse: 1. Award a fixed pool of H1Bs to qualified applicants with the highest wage in the offer (and monitor that this wage is in fact being paid). This should be easy to pass if your representatives in congress are in fact _your_ representatives. The president will sign this immediately, since he was the one who proposed it in the first pla…

> 1. Award a fixed pool of H1Bs to qualified applicants with the highest wage in the offer There is no reason for a fixed pool to exist, and it's not easy to rank applicants by wage given significant disparities in cost of living depending on geography

It blows my mind how, at the same time, the same people can argue in favor of "equality", and in favor of importing unlimited amounts of cheap labor to depress the wages of people who need money the most. It just doesn't compute, at all. And I'm perfectly fine with high cost of living areas getting all the H1Bs. Those areas also happen to have some of the highest tax rates in the country, so the US benefits.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#335

Post by SamReidHughes »

fzeroracer wrote: post #332
SamReidHughes wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I certainly object to the destruction of America’s culture too, but the construction of geofft’s argument is that categorically he could only think of one possible objection to immigration. And it’s not an irrational fear. It’s a very obvious fact that America with wide open borders would be a worse place for existing Americans to live, just look at the average country and ask if Americans would like to live the…

I don't believe it's a very obvious fact at all, considering America has had very lax borders in the past and I would not describe it as being a far worse place to live. If you're going to describe something as an obvious fact, how about you back up your obvious fact with citations or data? Otherwise then yes, it would be an irrational fear. And I would imagine the converse is true: If you asked anyone in another fir…

Simply by increasing population, traffic, and pollution it would make the country worse off.

You don’t need studies and citations to figure this out, you need to hold in your head a model of reality. You need above average people, who give more than they take, in order to drive the quality of the country upward.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#336

Post by gedy »

geofft wrote: post #296
gedy wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The labor market is global. Not for all countries! Definitely an imbalance there, and US is already pretty generous with immigration numbers. We've also seen that cheap labor does not reduce cost of living in developed countries, so importing foreign cheap labor is a loss for not-rich folks.

That's not what I mean—what I mean is that labor is in the service of products and services, and the market for products and services is overwhelmingly global. You can get software from anywhere. You can get PCBs from anywhere. You can get oil from anywhere. You can get clothes from anywhere. You can get cars from anywhere. You can get produce from almost anywhere. (Prepared food is hard, as are a few other things li…

> You can get clothes from anywhere. You can get cars from anywhere. You can get produce from almost anywhere...

But not everyone in any country can "get X from anywhere" is part of my point.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#337

Post by albemuth »

notatcomputer68 wrote: post #325
kolmogorov wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice these requirements aren’t that hard . I have an O1 visa and I know a few others and none of us are close to a Nobel prize or fields medal .

If you don't mind, which of them and how?

And describe them in the shortest possible way.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#338

Post by fzeroracer »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #335
fzeroracer wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe it's a very obvious fact at all, considering America has had very lax borders in the past and I would not describe it as being a far worse place to live. If you're going to describe something as an obvious fact, how about you back up your obvious fact with citations or data? Otherwise then yes, it would be an irrational fear. And I would imagine the converse is true: If you asked anyone in another fir…

Simply by increasing population, traffic, and pollution it would make the country worse off. You don’t need studies and citations to figure this out, you need to hold in your head a model of reality. You need above average people, who give more than they take, in order to drive the quality of the country upward.

Let's take your argument to the extreme then: If increasing population -> more traffic -> more pollution, then the obvious thing should be to reduce the birth rate in America which is a far more pressing issue than immigration if we're talking pure population growth.

Not only that but by your own argument since we need 'above average people' who 'give more than they take', the end result should be forcing people out of rural areas (the dense metropolitan areas tend to be more economically powerful) while also ensuring they can't procreate. What I'm getting at is essentially using population growth as an excuse for restricting immigration is itself an excuse, because there are many ways in which the issues of population growth are stymied and more effective at doing so.

And yes, I do want studies and citations. You're essentially begging the question in lieu of actually providing evidence for your own claims. I want you to give me explicit citations for your claims and your 'model of reality', because you're assuming that your model of reality is correct without any factual basis.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#339

Post by SamReidHughes »

fzeroracer wrote: post #338
SamReidHughes wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply by increasing population, traffic, and pollution it would make the country worse off. You don’t need studies and citations to figure this out, you need to hold in your head a model of reality. You need above average people, who give more than they take, in order to drive the quality of the country upward.

Let's take your argument to the extreme then: If increasing population -> more traffic -> more pollution, then the obvious thing should be to reduce the birth rate in America which is a far more pressing issue than immigration if we're talking pure population growth. Not only that but by your own argument since we need 'above average people' who 'give more than they take', the end result should be forcing people out…

Sorry, pal, you don't get to dictate the terms of this conversation.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#340

Post by fzeroracer »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #339
fzeroracer wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take your argument to the extreme then: If increasing population -> more traffic -> more pollution, then the obvious thing should be to reduce the birth rate in America which is a far more pressing issue than immigration if we're talking pure population growth. Not only that but by your own argument since we need 'above average people' who 'give more than they take', the end result should be forcing people out…

Sorry, pal, you don't get to dictate the terms of this conversation.

Then you're admitting that you're not here to actually debate in any sort of rational manner. If you make a claim and can't substantiate your claim when called out on it, then your claim has no rational or factual basis. At which point your entire argument falls apart, especially when you call something a 'very obvious fact'.
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