The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#331

Post by schnitzelstoat » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 9:13 AM UTC

obmelvin wrote: post #261

jahaja wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's up with this usage of the word "talent"? Tech is in such acute need of humble pie I don't even know where to begin. I'm becoming disillusioned. Why is a programmer etc. a "talent", but a carpenter just an employee, hire or whatever? But maybe it's actually an appropriate term, now when our interview processes so clearly have ceased to be job interviews, and have become auditions - because nothing less satisfie…

> These middle-management positions are so unmeasurable that I think they may be greatest source of bullshit jobs in tech. So if it's true that their success is largely unmeasureable, I wonder how you've come to that conclusion? But, product improvements shouldn't be immeasurable. Through analysis of engagement metrics, talking with users, etc. one can measure improvements. Sure, it isn't a direct measurement, but pu…

But the problem is that even if you measure an increase in KPIs you can't accurately attribute that success to the different team members and in the end the manager tends to get disproportionate credit.

It's the credit assignment problem IRL.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

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Post by paulgrant999 » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 9:30 AM UTC

arountheworld wrote: post #314

paulgrant999 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly you have not seen lotto winners. Or wall street people:) Or the really wealthy. ;) What your talking about, is upper-middle, lower-high. Eventually if you make enough cash, you will hit that limit. Sort of the whole "ball-washer" bit by Lewis Black.

But I am clearly not talking about lotto-winners, but someone who gets 2x salary, who may behave weird first couple of months and then becomes "normal". I fully agree about the lotto winners though. I had witnessed it actually as my school friend's parents won. For lack of a better description - they have become like animals with unlimited money, but money ended quickly though.

I spoke to your premise, taken out, ad infinitum.

its not a criticism; merely a remark - there is a point where that observation, hits a limit.

> they have become like animals with unlimited money, but money ended quickly though.

yup. pretty typical. takes a lot of mental discipline, to handle a serious wad of cash.

cheers.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#333

Post by ionised » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 10:22 AM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #260

jahaja wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's up with this usage of the word "talent"? Tech is in such acute need of humble pie I don't even know where to begin. I'm becoming disillusioned. Why is a programmer etc. a "talent", but a carpenter just an employee, hire or whatever? But maybe it's actually an appropriate term, now when our interview processes so clearly have ceased to be job interviews, and have become auditions - because nothing less satisfie…

Because Tech is a "profession" and if you think we are you obviously haven't seen how other professions Architects for example and Journalists have a very high opinion of them selves.

Software development is not one of the 'Professions', and never will be until it has a governing body and some degree of accountability for the shoddy work they can put out.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#334

Post by gaius » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 10:44 AM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #260

jahaja wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's up with this usage of the word "talent"? Tech is in such acute need of humble pie I don't even know where to begin. I'm becoming disillusioned. Why is a programmer etc. a "talent", but a carpenter just an employee, hire or whatever? But maybe it's actually an appropriate term, now when our interview processes so clearly have ceased to be job interviews, and have become auditions - because nothing less satisfie…

Because Tech is a "profession" and if you think we are you obviously haven't seen how other professions Architects for example and Journalists have a very high opinion of them selves.

Because Tech is a "profession"

If this were true, hard-won experience would be prized, as it is in law, medicine, and all real professions, instead we have rampant ageism and statements like “young people are just smarter”.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#335

Post by gaius » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 10:57 AM UTC

arbie wrote: post #297

riazrizvi wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the Earth", said Kennedy, and all the senators rushed the podium, slapped him on the back, and popped champagne, as they realized the hardest part was done.

Not parent, but in every successful project I have been part of, the technical challenges were always a small slice (perhaps less than a quarter) of the main effort. Getting organizational approval (which usually boils down to acquiring buy-in from management) and picking the path to progress (with occasional course-correction) are the main contributors to success. This isn't to discount the hard work involved in com…

Getting organizational approval (which usually boils down to acquiring buy-in from management

Why not just... not employ the people you need to fight in order to get anything done? How does the organisation and its shareholders benefit from employing full-time professional obstacles to progress?

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

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Post by rusticpenn » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 11:42 AM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #218

enjo wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not tho. It's really not. Most of the software you use every day was developed by very average software developers. The vast majority of the work software developers do isn't terribly novel or particularly difficult. And you know what? They do just fine. Things work well. Systems stay on line. Companies make money. I've seen too many "bad" teams produce perfectly functional software over the years to think that…

It really is night and day between a good dev and a bad dev. The key factor that you're probably not thinking about is time. A good dev doesn't think faster or have blazing fingers that fly across the keyboard, a good dev is constantly setting him/herself up to shave time off of future tasks, and those investments are constantly paying dividends. Those "bad" teams can definitely produce software that runs, but they d…

In my view, a good developer writes maintainable code. Easy to understand, easy to fix, no spaghetti.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#337

Post by cgarvis » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:09 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #309

enjo wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not tho. It's really not. Most of the software you use every day was developed by very average software developers. The vast majority of the work software developers do isn't terribly novel or particularly difficult. And you know what? They do just fine. Things work well. Systems stay on line. Companies make money. I've seen too many "bad" teams produce perfectly functional software over the years to think that…

The statistics I've seen say 60% of all software projects fail. My experience, anecdotal as it is, bears that out. Projects that don't fail, usually have to be rescued from some crazy doomed plans fairly regularly. You seem to have found a calmer, saner corner of the industry.

They probably failed due to bad product management.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

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Post by someguydave » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:09 PM UTC

xapata wrote: post #321

someguydave wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that "theory of the firm" is true, then engineering is much less commoditized than stated by the top-level commenter.

I believe that was the evidence provided by the great outsourcing experiment of 1996-2006. Turns out programming can't easily be turned into a low-skill job.

I agree. So why have so many programmers in Silicon Valley? Why don’t they leave and demand independent contracts? Perhaps that kind of “unbundling” of technical talent is the future.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#339

Post by ataturk » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:16 PM UTC

rc_hadoken wrote: post #3

I really hope someone on HN has a more in the trenches view of this and why? Maybe more engineers should leverage the unique advantage of their skill-set: passive income from coding projects? Assuming they want to make more money than PMs.

Been trying to create that "passive income" for over a decade with little to show for it. Guess I'm really bad at it. My only passive income has come from investments and it's not enough to fully retire on, only about half, subject to market conditions, of course. When you look at how much capital is involved it will make you cry to realize how little income can be derived from it in a reliable manner.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#340

Post by JesseLivermore » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:28 PM UTC

enjo wrote: post #210

payne92 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...because the skill gap between “ok”, “good”, and “great” is so much bigger for some jobs (software development) than it is for other jobs (carpentry).

It's not tho. It's really not. Most of the software you use every day was developed by very average software developers. The vast majority of the work software developers do isn't terribly novel or particularly difficult. And you know what? They do just fine. Things work well. Systems stay on line. Companies make money. I've seen too many "bad" teams produce perfectly functional software over the years to think that…

I think most people are not able to tell the difference between a great piece of software and an average one.

For example, the people at Apple who came with blocks and Grand Central Dispatch did an amazing job, but the difference between them and the average software developer is like 100x. A great software developer can write something that other developers can build on, which makes them more productive.

Conversely, the people who came up with Java, they figured out how to turn a great programmer into an average one, and make them want to quit computers altogether, but the below average programmers are now also average.