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US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

zdnet.com

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Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#331

Post by [deleted] »

losteric wrote: post #317
fixermark wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general public and repeatedly-reported-upon understanding of how data collection can be leveraged to find unexpected insights not obvious from the data, coupled with the Snowden leaks, coupled with the ever-increasing user count for cellphones, Facebook, Twitter, and the Internet in general. If people were deeply individually concerned about the risks vs. rewards of these technologies, they'd stop using them. Tha…

Do you trust the public is informed about these technologies? I think you might be overestimating individuals... most folks still don't know about Cambridge Analytica.

[deleted]

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#332

Post by pteredactyl »

sydd wrote: post #81
random6547545 wrote: post #44

Throwaway account. I work in location / mapping / geo. Some of us have been waiting for this to blow (which it hasn't yet). The public has zero idea how much personal location data is available. It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually…

And how can I buy this realtime data? Also > Hedge funds or services who analyze it for hedge funds is the big one. It's normal to track hundreds of millions of people a day and trade stocks based on where they go. Any articles/webpages about this one? Or a company name who is doing it?

Most funds actively try to stay out of the media. For some it's a core strategy.

( "Out of sight, out of mind" )

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#333

Post by JTbane »

random6547545 wrote: post #44

Throwaway account. I work in location / mapping / geo. Some of us have been waiting for this to blow (which it hasn't yet). The public has zero idea how much personal location data is available. It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually…

These days it seems like you need to remove all the batteries from your phone/smartwatch/assorted botnet devices to get any sort of privacy.

And then you'd still have a half dozen CCTV cameras on you.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#334

Post by sp332 »

jakeogh wrote: post #315
sp332 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have to know your location if you want to receive a call.

With the current setup, sure, but that's by design. The cellular modem could stay off until you decided to take the call if there was a nationwide page circuit listening, the user would get the ring, see the number the page sent, and if desired, answer, which powers on the modem, hits a tower and connects to a backend system that sent the page which took the incoming call. Page messages are in-the clear, but that's f…

You want every single cell phone call in the world to send out a signal over every single cell tower?

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#335

Post by pteredactyl »

codedokode wrote: post #240
Daycrawler wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning things works relatively well for people because they fear having trouble with law and justice. Doesn't work that well for corporations whose law department is just like any other department. In this case you must assume that if it's technically possible then it's done.

This argument can be used against any law, like antitrust law. Having a law department doesn't give you a free pass to break laws.

Exactly. I assume that's part of the point.

But having a law doesn't mean people or corporations won't break it out of the 'kindness of their heart'. Or because they're 'good people'.

For example, look at 'No gun zones'. You think a criminal is not going rob a bank at gun point because the bank is a no gun zone? If anything it incentivizes them because they know they'll have a monopoly of force upon entering ( if they have a gun, and can fairly assume no one else will because of 'no gun zone' policy )

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#336

Post by gordyf »

fixermark wrote: post #262
Mononokay wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel guilt over creating them?

Should they? The vast quantity of users find it incredibly useful and have no reason to be concerned about governments or third parties being able to determine their geographic location, because governments or third parties don't generally care.

You can be upset about an aspect of a product, and seek to change that aspect, without abandoning use of the product. For example, 1.3 million people are killed by cars every year, and while we recognize the risk, we also constantly improve them through safety regulations, training and improved technology. Just because people use cell phones and apps today doesn't mean we're okay with the downsides and should stop trying to improving them.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#337

Post by pteredactyl »

brewdad wrote: post #319
codedokode wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument can be used against any law, like antitrust law. Having a law department doesn't give you a free pass to break laws.

Unless we start throwing the legal department and higher ups into prison then it basically becomes a free pass to break laws. Currently, we assess fines to corporations that violate these laws. It then becomes a cost/benefit analysis weighing the likelihood of getting caught * cost of potential fine vs business value of ignoring the law. Ignoring the law is frequently the correct decision.

Agreed. There needs to be criminal liability for folks like Stumpf and other big bankers/corporate overlords.

But do you think our government will ever stand up? Doubtful

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#338

Post by emodendroket »

rectang wrote: post #308
emodendroket wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, but distrusting all parties doesn't suggest a way forward.

Why not? Both government and private industry bring innumerable benefits to humanity. But we can and should view them both with constant skepticism and exercise vigilance. Why should holding one accountable mean that we can't hold the other accountable? If you're looking for someone to root for, I'd suggest the individual citizen.

The individual citizen has practically no power against large institutional actors.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#339

Post by bradlys »

codedokode wrote: post #222
yosito wrote: post #39

Has anyone suggested a practical way that people can avoid being tracked? (Aside from Airplane Mode or keeping your phone in a Faraday Cage)

Change the law (don't know if it is practical though).

Out of all the solutions suggested - this is the most practical. This would actually fix the problem at hand. Make it illegal for them to either obtain and/or sell this data.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#340

Post by dude123456 »

geostack wrote: post #320
dude123456 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get all the data (geo, user's year-of-birth, user interests, device type, etc) before you place the bid. All the json data fields are defined in the standard. I can see iOS and Windows-phone in the feed, it's not limited to Android phones. https://www.iab.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/OpenRTB_API_S... You don't actually have to bid. (HN is rate-limiting me) edit: Data is pushed to you as fast as you can process…

To get a seat on the exchange, you need to bid, and exchanges also don't allow you to store data of bid requests that you don't win for purposes other than bid algorithm optimization in their terms and conditions, since that's stealing data. If they find out you're freeloading, they'll cut you out. Also, most of the data on it is pretty shitty with lots of fraud since the publishers want to get more money. The geo da…

In a typical bid entry there are between 500 and 5000 bits of information relating to an individual, per the definition of GDPR. And that's not including the dreaded "IFA", which uniquely identifies the individual.

I don't agree with your claim that "the geodata is often fraudulent".

Anyone can read the linked pdf specification (above), download sample data from the exchanges, and judge for themselves.

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