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Swedes turn against cashlessness

theguardian.com

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Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#331

Post by mcv »

sokoloff wrote: post #320
mcv wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are only 4 things that I still pay with cash: my cleaner, my cheese shop (who refuses to get a pin machine, the luddite), my son's allowance, and money for street performers and beggars. The only thing for which I use credit cards are online purchases from foreign websites that don't support iDeal. Everything else is through regular bank transactions, either through pin card, direct transactions, or iDeal. All…

Can you share the reasons why it's vastly superior to credit cards? Using my card, I get good post-purchase protection (via threat of chargeback or card issuer-provided warranty increase) and excellent fraud protection.

It's cheaper. More importantly, it's more secure, because it uses my bank's security system and doesn't rely on sending "secret" information like credit card numbers to unknown parties.

Everything is handled by my own bank, and if I don't trust my own bank, I can choose a better bank and use that. With credit cards, I have to use whatever payment provider the merchant uses, and either they or the merchant can hang on to my credit card number, which weirdly is sufficient to access my money. Also, there are only two credit card providers that really count; not a lot of choice there.

Chargebacks may seem attractive as a buyer, but they also mean that a seller can lose their money after they legitimately sent the goods. Merchants would have to track down individual customers to sue them to get their money back.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#332

Post by jfoldager »

interfixus wrote: post #329
Symbiote wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Denmark "I'll MobilePay you 50 crowns" or "can you MobilePay me 200?", at least when speaking English. My Danish isn't good enough to reliably say what it is when speaking Danish. Probably something like "Jeg mobilepayer dig halvtres¹ kroner" The system in Britain (Paym) hasn't really caught on. They might be less keen to verb a noun. ¹ This is why I avoid discussing numbers in Danish.

Strangely, I have never heard it verbed that way in Danish. Alle I ever hear is the slightly laborious ' sender dig på MobilePay '. But then again, I'm ancient.

The verbification of a foreign language word easily becomes awkward: "Mobilpayer du mig lige 50?". Yes, Denmark is so anglofile they chose an English word for a Danish payment service.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#333

Post by drstewart »

dalbasal wrote: post #173

Good. The cashless drive gives me the creeps. 1 - First, I like cash. It's tactile and gives me a feel for my spending. 2 - Cards are an duopoly, layered onto an oligopoly. Cashless gives this system a 2% tax on all spending (+ fraud, which retailers pay for). 3 - Government control is creepy too. Liberty reasons, privacy reasons, single-point-of failure reasons. Just simple competency reasons. 4 - It advantages big…

Cool. Now explain how online transactions will work in your cash-only society.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#334

Post by Faark »

Viliam1234 wrote: post #202
nearmuse wrote: post #180

Looks like most people in this comments section are afraid to pass for a luddite if they don't support cashless transactions. But the argument about centralized system watching every payment you make is still valid. Why are people so eager to jump off something and irreversibly lose its good properties (anonymity, decentralization and reliability in case of analogue money) and that just for the sake of minor comfort?…

It's not just "centralized system watching every payment you make", but also a possibility that it could veto your payment. The crude option is when 'undesirable' citizens will not be given credit cards, or if all their cards 'accidentally' stop functioning the same day to teach them a lesson. When no shop sells you food for money, your options are to beg, steal, or starve. A more sophisticated option could be 'intel…

So many requirements for digital cash

- You want control to fight fraud/bad actors

- You don't want to much control for a single party (incl gov)

- It should work without necessary global communications (e.g. post disaster; global consensus like Bitcoin won't help there)

- Users want privacy

- Usual stuff like no double spending

- Transparency would be nice to verify correctness and no abuse by your bank

- Easy to use

We'll have a hard time finding a replacement satisfying them all. I wonder what we'll be willing to give up.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#335

Post by brownbat »

QasimK wrote: post #139
brownbat wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I requested a contactless card in the US, it took some pleading, but it was the greatest decision. About half the places I shop support Apple and Google pay, and those systems always seem to take the card, but it's far faster than my phone or watch. Way faster than chip, of course. No idea why it didn't take off here, contactless cards have been the best experience for me by a mile. Maybe people have had better luck…

Contactless cards aren’t really any faster than Apple Pay secured by your fingerprint, and in fact are the same speed if you prepare your iPhone - supposing your phone is at least as accessible as your contactless card. I’ve never used the Apple Watch for this.

> Contactless cards aren’t really any faster than Apple Pay

I don't have to unlock my card. Also, the card is much lighter and smaller, and I don't worry about dropping and breaking it, so the cognitive load is lighter.

I don't carry a wallet, though, just a card to pay for things, keys, and a license. I also don't carry my phone around unlocked, so those things might make a difference.

If you used the phone as the only thing in your pocket, because it had your DL (if you even drive) and unlocked your doors at home with a smart phone app, then I could definitely see the minimalist appeal. I really like having almost nothing in my pockets, and a phone could do that.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#336

Post by staplers »

brownbat wrote: post #89
staplers wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cashless transactions require a third party Cryptocurrency.. (miners are decentralized and don't require you to trust them)

The network is still the third party. With cash, or bottle caps, or any physical token, all you need are two people that agree it has value. Possession is the ledger.

  all you need are two people that agree it has value
Wrong. All currencies need a network (physical or otherwise) or else it's just bartering between two objects.

The entire idea of currency requires a network of people who project a common value in the implemented token/object/hash.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#337

Post by StanislavPetrov »

Symbiote wrote: post #230
dalbasal wrote: post #173

Good. The cashless drive gives me the creeps. 1 - First, I like cash. It's tactile and gives me a feel for my spending. 2 - Cards are an duopoly, layered onto an oligopoly. Cashless gives this system a 2% tax on all spending (+ fraud, which retailers pay for). 3 - Government control is creepy too. Liberty reasons, privacy reasons, single-point-of failure reasons. Just simple competency reasons. 4 - It advantages big…

1. Can your cash do this? [1] A breakdown of spending by my internet bank, by category. 4. In Sweden, and some other European countries (and China?) a lemonade stand works by person-to-person bank transfers, initiated using a mobile phone app. The Swedish one is called Swish, but I link to the Danish one [2] as they have an English explanation. People really do use these apps for things like lemonade stands. I've see…

>1. Can your cash do this? [1] A breakdown of spending by my internet bank, by category.

No, neither can it break down my spending habits for the banks, the government, and anyone else with access (authorized or not) to that data. One of the most important reasons I use cash.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#338

Post by sincerely »

QasimK wrote: post #139
brownbat wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I requested a contactless card in the US, it took some pleading, but it was the greatest decision. About half the places I shop support Apple and Google pay, and those systems always seem to take the card, but it's far faster than my phone or watch. Way faster than chip, of course. No idea why it didn't take off here, contactless cards have been the best experience for me by a mile. Maybe people have had better luck…

Contactless cards aren’t really any faster than Apple Pay secured by your fingerprint, and in fact are the same speed if you prepare your iPhone - supposing your phone is at least as accessible as your contactless card. I’ve never used the Apple Watch for this.

Widespread acceptance and use of contactless cards are much, much better than any solution tied to a phone (let alone a luxury phone brand) because they're accessible to anyone with a bank account.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#339

Post by dang »

Redklao wrote: post #300
dang wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't respond to a comment that breaks the site guidelines by breaking them yourself. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

My comment does not break any guideline. Your comment, however, does.

The comment was uncivil by presuming nationality on the part of a fellow commenter and then attacking them for it.

That's nationalistic flamebait, one of the worst kinds of flamebait, and it definitely breaks the site guidelines as moderators here interpret them.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#340

Post by arghwhat »

interfixus wrote: post #327
arghwhat wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mentioned elsewhere, "Peter-pays-Paul" is huge in Scandinavia. MobilePay, a person-to-person payment app in Denmark, is a huge deal here. It had 3 million users in 2016 (out of 7 million people!), and its second-priority shop payment feature (that arrived much later) is challenging credit cards. It's used for everything from selling used goods to splitting bills. Swish, the Swedish equivalent, has 4 million users.…

Only 5.7 million people, actually, but otherwise, yeah. Note, though, that it's not really just Peter paying Paul, as the transaction is still between their respective banks with everything that entails. And a MobilePay account is actually tied to a specific payment card. I have had a MobilePay transaction refused (and from a public institution, no less) because my account did not involve a Dankort , the only payment…

Oh, damn, I mixed up the DK population with the world population. Just makes the number more incredible. :)

Anyway, it is really Peter paying Paul. It is just centralized and in a stable currency, with all the benefits that entail, such as instant execution, ease of use and predictable outcome. It of course also has the downside: There are gate keepers, in the form of Danske Bank and other banks involved.

Bitcoin is also Peter paying Paul, but decentralized/p2p. And, frankly, this is its Achilles heel as much as it is its greatest feature.

You might be misunderstanding how MobilePay engaged with payment cards. Things have changed a bit since the start, but MobilePay originally asked for your dankort info to extract bank account information. It performed direct bank transfers, screwing Nets over for transaction fees (anything screwing over Nets is good for mankind).

However, because people demanded the support, "real" credit cards was later added (not sure if only for shopping), but they're likely letting stores eat the fees. Thus, they probably let the store pick whether they support cards that cost them fees. In general, the MobilePay used for stores is very different in function from the one used between users.

(I was in fintech with companies like Nets as client when MobilePay launched, but that is not the case anymore, so my info may be out of date.)

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