Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job • Hacker News Board

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#331

Post by gnulinux » Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 7:26 AM UTC

cylinder wrote: post #54

corobo wrote: post #21

The meat of the story is that Omaha man worked for Marriott hotels on customer support. Their support system allows their agents to like tweets. The man appears to have inadvertently clicked like on a tweet while dealing with a large influx of support messages (due to a promo going on) thanking Marriott for listing Tibet as its own country which was a huge no-no due to Mariott's presence in China. Execs fire him as a…

The real story is he has no employment rights because he's in America and he's "at will." They can dismiss him because they don't like his lunch selection that day and he has no rights. That's at will employment. This type of situation plays out all over the country everyday.

As an "at will" junior software engineer, if I one day get fired for my lunch selection, is there any legal actions I can take, assuming I'm an honest, skilled, competent worker?

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#332

Post by vertis » Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 7:30 AM UTC

ad_hominem wrote: post #255

cylinder wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the GP who brought up this topic. I actually am American and now working at a managerial level in Australia. When I ran into trouble with someone on my team performing at a poor level, I was a bit exasperated with these regulations and how they required me to put him on a performance improvement plan rather than immediately dismiss. I was frustrated, but it forced me to talk it out with him. We did a bit of a res…

Plenty of white collar businesses in the US use performance improvement plans. But that would be a ridiculous remedy in a business with thin margins like a restaurant - some businesses need the freedom to hire and fire quicker.

Australian businesses tend to employ as casuals for cafes and restaurants. No need to fire the person, just reduce shifts till they get the hint (I am not an employer).

Aside from Unions, there is no way of protecting employees where they are interchangeable cogs. Unions have their own problems, but collective action is a pretty good deterrent against 'unjustified' termination.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#333

Post by Corrado » Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 7:33 AM UTC

Declanomous wrote: post #44

corobo wrote: post #21

The meat of the story is that Omaha man worked for Marriott hotels on customer support. Their support system allows their agents to like tweets. The man appears to have inadvertently clicked like on a tweet while dealing with a large influx of support messages (due to a promo going on) thanking Marriott for listing Tibet as its own country which was a huge no-no due to Mariott's presence in China. Execs fire him as a…

I totally believe "the UI sucks argument" as well. I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally liked something on Instagram because of the stupid double tap a photo = like, not zoom feature. Instagram is a piece of software millions of people use every day. I've designed software that 5 - 100 people use a day, and I can tell you the UI is going to suck if you have a data architect design the UI for your CRUD ap…

I've actually had this exact problem with Instagram.

  1. My teenage daughter shows me picture of a girl she knows but doesn't like.
  2. I don't have my glasses so I double-tap to try to zoom in a bit.
  3. My daughter screams that the girl now knows that she was looking at her picture.
  4. I quickly double-tap again to un-like the photo.
  5. My daughter glares at me because she knows that the damage is already done.

In fact, I can relate to the guy in the original story. Fortunately, I only earned my daughters short lived wrath and didn't lose my job.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#334

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 7:33 AM UTC

skookumchuck wrote: post #315

um_ya wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm, I run a business. The biggest expense to my company are the employees. All the regulatory requirements and bullshit that comes along with it, not to mention the risk of an employee suing the company for whatever reason. There's a lot of risk hiring employees, that's why I try to minimize the number of employees I have to hire, whenever possible.

Simply put, the harder it is to fire someone, the harder it will be to get a job.

No - because job availability depends on other considerations too.

Strangely, European countries with more humane employment laws don’t have correspondingly higher unemployment.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#335

Post by grzm » Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 7:34 AM UTC

skookumchuck wrote: post #320

John_KZ wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Startups are a form of volatile research projects that could be done better in a corporate environment. Startups provide precarious and unstable employment, and on average they fail and lead to unemployment. I personally love working on new, potent ideas, but this is not a viable model of development for society. "Gig economy" is getting out of control, and it's better to kill the startups than to let people abuse th…

> Startups are a form of volatile research projects that could be done better in a corporate environment. Check out "The Innovator's Dilemma" by Christensen. Innovation doesn't come from established corporations. It comes from startups.

In "The Innovator's Dilemma" Christensen makes a compelling argument why startups can eat an established company's lunch, but it doesn't go so far as say innovation cannot come from established corporations or only comes from startups. There are examples where established companies have innovated. Three off the top of my head: Bell Labs as part of Bell Telephone made many critical innovations; Apple has also continued to innovate over the years. IBM isn't always thought of as innovating nowadays, but they've had a long history of not only patenting new ideas but also bringing them to market.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#336

Post by lultimouomo » Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 7:35 AM UTC

nicolas_t wrote: post #212

zapita wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incorrect. The French like to complain about their taxes, but it's not that different from California. Employee protection regulation absolutely is problematic in France, because it over-protect relatively small groups at the expense of everyone else. Small and medium-sized businesses are most affected by this. The transition from 40-ish people to 200-ish people is where the system really breaks down for Fren…

No different than California? Let's see. I don't know the numbers well in Cali but I know what I paid in France. I'd be curious to see what one would pay in California for a similar situation. For a 100,000 euros income as a sole proprietorship, I paid 42% altogether. From those 42%, 7% were income tax, the remaining 35% were Charges sociales which covers healthcare, unemployment and retirement benefits. When French…

When you compare California tax you should then add the cost of private health insurance and retirement plan. I'd be be really surprised if the sum would come under 42%. It seems to me you're getting a very good deal! I would not have expected the 7% average income tax in particular, is it due to the sole proprietorship? Would you pay more if you directly invoiced as a person?

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#337

Post by vertis » Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 7:40 AM UTC

gt_ wrote: post #318

banned1 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to empathize with a business owners. It's their resources at play. So they simply will do business elsewhere. I don't have to open an office in France. I just don't. It's too much hassle. I open it wherever I want. So if an employee loses out by not being hired by me (or I lose out by not hiring some French awesome person), then so be it. But the point is that the US environment is more friendly for bu…

No, that’s wrong. It’s just one of the lies you Americans love to tell each other.

I was trying to find supporting evidence for this (I certainly feel it to be true), Unfortunately I found the opposite[1].

Though this was till 2016, so I wonder if it's changed.

[1]: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/11/these-are-the-countri...

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#338

Post by ptaipale » Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 7:48 AM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #334

skookumchuck wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply put, the harder it is to fire someone, the harder it will be to get a job.

No - because job availability depends on other considerations too. Strangely, European countries with more humane employment laws don’t have correspondingly higher unemployment.

Depends on what you mean by "more humane" but U.S. has lower unemployment than OECD average, and European countries mostly have higher. In particular, France and Italy, known for how difficult it is to dismiss employees both individually and in masses, have high unemployment.

North European countries, where individual dismissal is difficult but mass dismissal (restructuring) is easy, fare better.

Germany, also with quite rigid employment laws, has low unemployment. As the dominant euro member it is basically running the monetary policy of the whole continent from its own needs.

Data: http://www.oecd.org/employment/ministerial/employment-in-fig...

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#339

Post by slavik81 » Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 7:55 AM UTC

gpm wrote: post #124

tatersolid wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much all of them except a few European nations.

The law and details varies by province/territory in Canada, but in every single one of them you are due form of notice/pay in lieu of notice. I.e. they have to pay you for X weeks after they tell you they are firing you, they might require you keep working for those X weeks.

I really like the Alberta model[1]. Employers are required to give a few weeks notice when firing without cause, and employees are required to give a few weeks notice when quitting without cause.

The notice periods are not excessively long, but they give both parties a chance to prepare for the change. A few weeks might not be enough time to hire a new employee or find a new job, but it should be enough to put together a plan.

The ability to fire or quit without cause seems like the part of 'at will' employment that's most important to economic efficiency, so it's nice to have a kinder system which still includes that.

[1]: https://www.alberta.ca/termination-pay.aspx

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#340

Post by tajen » Sat, Mar 24, 2018, 7:55 AM UTC

brownbat wrote: post #295

KyeRussell wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proponents of a largely deregulated labour market love talking about France. As someone working in Australia—a country with labour laws that are more sane than France (and definitely the U.S.)—instantly bringing up France just tends to stink of a false dichotomy and a line of rhetoric from people that try to justify the U.S.'s unjustifiably unfair labour laws. I suggest that people who aren't familiar with Australia'…

Agreed we shouldn't cherry pick countries. One interesting thing about France and Australia is that by the Ease of Doing Business Index over the last decade, France is gaining on but still behind Australia. (FRA: 44 -> 31; AUS: 6 -> 14). So suppose we agreed France was performing worse economically than Australia over the last decade. Then we might conclude that absolute position matters and liberalization is importa…

Another relationship to study is between the quasi job-for-life laws we have in France and being the country with the most population under antidepressants in the world.