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How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

theguardian.com

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Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#331

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #109
untog wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The internet will almost certainly spawn a social movement to destroy the class system in the US. I'm unconvinced. The class system is, at its core, money. And short of eBay allowing people to sell second hand items peer to peer, I really don't think the internet has enabled economic mobility all that much. A select few in Silicon Valley have gotten very rich, certainly, but an effect on the population at large? Ma…

I think you're undervaluing the impact of the internet on small business. Sure, a few guys at the tippy top of Uber-eats are the only ones getting fabulously wealthy, but I've discovered several wonderful mom and pop restaurants through that service. Sure, only a hand full of people at Google are getting fabulously wealthy, but most of the video content I consume these days are regular-ish people on Youtube who now m…

Just because you’ve thrown a few crumbs of business or exposure at these people doesn’t mean they’ve become any richer than their equivalents would have been in the pre-Internet days.

The fact that the technological requirements for small new businesses and cottage content industries have changed shouldn’t be confused with an improvement in the opportunity landscape as a whole.

If anything, these “businesses” - especially the content creators - are more like digital feudalisms, as (mostly) low-status low-value workers try to scratch out an existence on territory owned by a single entity they have no democratic influence on.

The reality is that wealth concentration among the hyper-rich is accelerating as they capture an ever-increasing share of global productivity.

If the Internet were likely to fix this, we’d have seen some evidence of this happening by now.

But there is exactly zero evidence for this, and even less reason to believe that it can happen, given where we are today.

The only thing that might change this is total disintermediation - open, distributed, publicly owned, non-corporate hardware and software infrastructure, including search, security, content distribution, storage, and applications.

You only have to think about that for a few moments to see how far we are from that kind of Internet, and just how locked down, siloed, chokepointed, gated, and obsessively monetised the Internet we have today is.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#332

Post by closeparen »

ryandrake wrote: post #234
dizzystar wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To my mind, watering and feeding your lawn so that it is nice and green and exactly 1 1/2" tall all year round is a solid middle-class indicator. I find it kind of strange to spend that time and money on doing something that has little to no productive value. Not throwing daggers or anything, but every strata has things that are a bit strange about them. Yes, I know that upper class does that too, unless you are in t…

I suppose it varies regionally. To me, merely owning a lawn is something reserved for the upper crust, let alone having the time to maintain one. The middle class lives in small apartments and rents houses (with roommates or extended family).

Everyone in the Bay Area was was forced to step down a class so that the tech boom and neighborhood character could coexist. Owning a (modest) suburban home for your nuclear family is baseline middle class everywhere else. Renting (and especially renting with roommates) is for students and the poor.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#333

Post by closeparen »

ericd wrote: post #94
tytytytytytytyt wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Ikea has some really good furniture one could assemble themselves, too...

The only way to become wealthy is to spend less than you make. The only way to stay wealthy is to spend less than you make (and have your investments outpace inflation). One of the best ways to do that is to not inflate your lifestyle, like starting to think you're too good for things like putting together your furniture from Ikea.

If furniture can make or break you, we're talking about degrees of middle-class-ness, not wealth.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#334

Post by ZeroGravitas »

workthrowaway27 wrote: post #300
rsync wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I live in the U.S., but I think I'd prefer to live in one of the countries for losers." ... from the article: "Here is the list of the world’s top Loser Countries: (.nl, .de, .ch, .no, .dk)" As someone who travels to these countries frequently (rsync.net has a Zurich location) I can certainly get on board with the desire to move to Switzerland. It is a nicer country than the US. However, it is a ridiculous notion th…

This is absolutely true, and obvious to anyone open-minded who has spent time in those countries, but good luck trying to have any discussion about the downsides of immigration in the US without getting shouted down as a racist.

Unless your volunteering to deport your own ethic group to increase homogeneity (which you're obviously not) then you're probably advocating for the textbook definition of racism.

Which may explain why you can't say that without being called a racist.

Also, I'm not sure the facts back you up. Is the USA really more diverse than Canada? Is the UK really more diverse than Germany?

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#335

Post by f33g91pv43232f »

hkmurakami wrote: post #278
gorpomon wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few really stuck out to me. The biggest one was pouring wine. I remember a few times I poured it kind of off and I got that distinct look of class violation. Haggling about splitting checks also got those looks often, the lesson I learned there was that almost always, the party will want to split it evenly rather than do something as gauche as math, so rather than order less, order much more so you get a discount o…

Have the other person order first, then order the same number of courses and roughly the same price points.

Or stop worrying about missing out or getting too much and just order what you actually want.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#336

Post by snvzz »

emodendroket wrote: post #263
snvzz wrote: post #158

Why bother? The so-called high-class are born rich. They never had to work hard for what they have. You can be pretty sure they couldn't. Most poor people do stay poor, after all. If you made your own fortune, then you're objectively better than most of them. In fact, they do not deserve your time.

Well, because to be successful in their world you have to, if not pass for one of them, at least not make them so uncomfortable they don't want to work with you.

Yes, that's the one and only reason I can think of.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#337

Post by austinjp »

trowawee wrote: post #56
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really is true that there are unspoken codes and mores to follow, and it was uncomfortable when I didn't Any examples spring to mind?

Not the author of the parent comment, but my family shifted from solidly middle-class to members of the 1% over the course of a few years in the early 2000s (my teenage years) as our family business became significantly more successful. Here are some of the things I've experienced that strike me as examples of that: - Talking specifically about money (how much high-ticket items specifically cost, how much anyone spec…

> Talking specifically about money

Yes, and I'd extend this to talking about where your money comes from, as well as how you spend it. Don't expect a straight or detailed answer to "What do you do (for work)?" or "Where did you buy that?"

Asking those questions immediately marks you.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#338

Post by sedachv »

hkmurakami wrote: post #268
jdietrich wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look in Brooks Brothers or Banana Republic. You'll see the standard upper-middle-class smart-casual wardrobe - chinos and cords, oxford shirts, v-neck sweaters, sport coats and brogues. There's some nuance, but it's not rocket science.

imo the social attire is much more difficult to parse than the business attire.

It is much more regional as well. Nantucket reds might be acceptable casual attire in places on the East coast; here in California they come off as the clown pants that they really are.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#339

Post by lotsofpulp »

coldtea wrote: post #301
lotsofpulp wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only makes sense if you're consuming roughly the same amount. If you have people who don't drink alcohol in your group, or don't eat meat/seafood/poultry, that's easily 15% to 30% difference in cost. I try to make sure those aren't sharing in alcohol or meat don't end up paying for it. It wouldn't be a problem if the difference was $5, but nowadays, in many cities this ends up being $10 per drink and an extra $1…

> That only makes sense if you're consuming roughly the same amount. In our culture's case, in general the amount each one ate doesn't matter -- whether one had steak and the other just a salad, the salad person can very well still go on and insist on paying for everybody else. Nobody would care about "a 15% to 30% difference in cost" (the person paying for everybody wont feel it's a burden, and the persons having th…

Longer term is when it would make leaa sense because even if everyone is volunteering to pay, the one who is consuming 15% to 30% less is always paying extra. I can see not caring if it's once or twice a year, but I'd feel bad for expecting someone to keep paying extra when I can easily add a couple numbers in my head and take care of my portion.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#340

Post by Consultant32452 »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #331
Consultant32452 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're undervaluing the impact of the internet on small business. Sure, a few guys at the tippy top of Uber-eats are the only ones getting fabulously wealthy, but I've discovered several wonderful mom and pop restaurants through that service. Sure, only a hand full of people at Google are getting fabulously wealthy, but most of the video content I consume these days are regular-ish people on Youtube who now m…

Just because you’ve thrown a few crumbs of business or exposure at these people doesn’t mean they’ve become any richer than their equivalents would have been in the pre-Internet days. The fact that the technological requirements for small new businesses and cottage content industries have changed shouldn’t be confused with an improvement in the opportunity landscape as a whole. If anything, these “businesses” - espec…

>The fact that the technological requirements for small new businesses and cottage content industries have changed shouldn’t be confused with an improvement in the opportunity landscape as a whole.

Except cottage content and product industries can now sell to virtually the entire planet. That simply wasn't available before.

>as (mostly) low-status low-value workers

Here you're projecting your own bias against them. I'm not suggesting "the system" is without flaws, but the average joe seems to be doing alright in general, especially if you consider average joe historically and globally.

>The reality is that wealth concentration among the hyper-rich is accelerating as they capture an ever-increasing share of global productivity.

Wealth concentration among the hyper-rich doesn't concern me in the least. Generally speaking wealth is created by providing value, not taking it.

>If the Internet were likely to fix this, we’d have seen some evidence of this happening by now.

The internet is in the process of unseating media monopolies and democratizing information. The poorest of the poor across the world have access to information that was previously only available to the wealthiest who could attend universities in rich countries. The internet has allowed small businesses with basically no infrastructure to reach the entire global market. It's allowed families to keep in touch instantaneously across oceans.

>You only have to think about that for a few moments to see how far we are from that kind of Internet, and just how locked down, siloed, chokepointed, gated, and obsessively monetised the Internet we have today is.

You're comparing the internet to some fantasy you have. I'm comparing the internet to the world before the internet.

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