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Leap: An Online Community for Women

blog.ycombinator.com

331–340 of 364 posts

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#331

I expect this to be a controversial comment. I might just be overreacting. If you identify as a woman and are interested in joining Leap, please sign up for our beta here. I'm a trans woman who works in tech. I think it's dangerous to open a community for women to people who "identify as women". For one thing, there are plenty of women who do not "identify as women". For instance, older women may not really know what…

>have spent most of their professional lives as men and who have often contributed to exactly the kind of working environment that makes womens' lives difficult as tech workers This is certainly not the case for all trans women. You may not feel like you need to join a community like this, but I don't think it's fair to then speak for/to the trans community saying that none of us should. I've heard things similar to…

You know, after thinking about this a bit more it just hit me that it'd be really great to have a community for trans women in tech, where to connect and network and find or offer mentoring to others. Others who don't identify as trans could also be welcome so it doesn't need to be an exclusive space.

Unfortunately I'm totally rubbish at community building (wouldn't know where to start) so I won't be the one to do it. But it's strange that nobody has thought of it just yet. This is just anecdata but there are a lot of trans women in tech. We should just band together.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#332
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The real reason why there are so fewer women in tech isn’t because of discrimination, harassment or unequal pay (although like I said these factors do exist and need to be fixed). The real reason is that most women clearly aren’t as interested in technology-related work as men are. It’s a choice. And for whatever reasons, more women seem to choose other fields." https://www.forbes.com/sites/quickerbettertech/2015/03…

I'm sorry but that is a very intellectually dishonest passage. There is real concern that women may be turned away fom technology careers because of cultural bias that says those jobs are not for women. And the answer to that is that "maybe they're just not interested"? Well- how do you explain the fact that "they're just not interested"? Why is cultural bias not an explanation of this lack of interest? And if it isn…

There are real genetic differences in how the brains of men and women work. Men and women do not have the same interests, the same goals, nor the same desires. To claim otherwise is ignoring established scientific facts. Studies on this subject always lead to the same conclusion: That women are just less interested in tech jobs, just as men are less interested in social jobs.[0]

I presented the OP with a objective, data-based argument and limited myself to quoting only the article (of which there are many, many, many more I could have chosen from) exactly to avoid a subjective response like yours. I am not interested in ideological discussions about purely subjective arguments (Read: flamewars). You can ignore the data all you like, but please don't try to drag me into an argument with that.

[0]: https://flowingdata.com/2017/09/11/most-female-and-male-occu...

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#333
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would fighting racism with racism or sexism with sexism be a productive Here you cross into making this yet another same-old generic ideological thread, thus guaranteeing repetition and tedium. What more we can do to explain to HNers that this is where discussions become off topic because the light/heat ratio goes to zero? I realize the line isn't obvious when a topic starts out close to it anyhow. But you know…

There definitely is something I'm not understanding if this comment crossed the line. I'm sorry, it's still not my intent to negatively affect the quality of this site. This may seem pedantic, but what do you consider ideological? I said what I said because I saw it as a fundamental flaw of the community. I don't believe fighting discrimination with discrimination is productive, and I believe a woman-only community i…

By ideology I mean something like predictable clusters of ideas around large questions. On HN it doesn't much matter which ideology people subscribe to or battle against—it's all more or less off topic here. There are two reasons.

First, all of it is predictable. Each time something gets repeated, its potential to gratify curiosity diminishes. In the case of ideological squabbles, the repetition is so entrenched that there's no curiosity potential left at all. What is has instead is strong conflict potential, meaning that such discussions not only add no value here, they burn up and destroy what does have value.

Second, it's all generic. The larger a question is, the harder it is to say meaningful things about it. Signal/noise ratio goes down as topics get more generic.

I don't doubt that it's possible for people to find new, meaningful things to say about large generic questions. But internet comments are not the right genre for expressing them. Someone who truly has such ideas would write a book or an essay, for the same reason one wouldn't excavate the foundation for a house with a thimble.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#334
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you support alternate forms of identity verification? I'd like to join, but I don't have a Facebook account.

Not yet, but I plan to in the future.

Here are some ideas:

lobste.rs has a invite system where a person who invites someone may potentially be kicked if the person they invite is a problem. See https://lobste.rs/about#invitations

Organize a booth or representative at women-focused tech events like FFC or GHC, or have events/meetups for Leap members to meet face-to-face where prospective members are also invited. The invite system would make this easier to implement.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>have spent most of their professional lives as men and who have often contributed to exactly the kind of working environment that makes womens' lives difficult as tech workers This is certainly not the case for all trans women. You may not feel like you need to join a community like this, but I don't think it's fair to then speak for/to the trans community saying that none of us should. I've heard things similar to…

>> This is certainly not the case for all trans women. You may not feel like you need to join a community like this, but I don't think it's fair to then speak for/to the trans community saying that none of us should. I accept that there are differences between trans women, but I believe my description covers a strong majority. I don't speak "for" anyone, of course. >> It ends up with us being excluded _everywhere_ be…

> My concern is that in the case of women-only spaces where trans women are welcome, many trans women will join, responding to their need to belong, which you express and which I feel myself. And that given enough trans women joining, a few of them will eventually display those behavioural traits you can expect from people who grew up like men and that are the traits the community seems to want to keep out.

I am cis-gendered female and exhibit a lot of conversational traits typically identified as male-patterned. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed?

Personally I love the idea of allowing trans-women into a woman focused community. Your perspective is going to be unique (and likely uniquely insightful.) You also experience the same discrimination as cis-gendered women if you aren't explicitly identifying as transgendered and may have the same needs for support and understanding related to that discrimination.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>have spent most of their professional lives as men and who have often contributed to exactly the kind of working environment that makes womens' lives difficult as tech workers This is certainly not the case for all trans women. You may not feel like you need to join a community like this, but I don't think it's fair to then speak for/to the trans community saying that none of us should. I've heard things similar to…

>> This is certainly not the case for all trans women. You may not feel like you need to join a community like this, but I don't think it's fair to then speak for/to the trans community saying that none of us should. I accept that there are differences between trans women, but I believe my description covers a strong majority. I don't speak "for" anyone, of course. >> It ends up with us being excluded _everywhere_ be…

> And that given enough trans women joining, a few of them will eventually display those behavioural traits you can expect from people who grew up like men and that are the traits the community seems to want to keep out.

Other than those regarding genitalia, cis-women are probably as likely to fail to conform to gender stereotypes as trans-women.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#337
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but that is a very intellectually dishonest passage. There is real concern that women may be turned away fom technology careers because of cultural bias that says those jobs are not for women. And the answer to that is that "maybe they're just not interested"? Well- how do you explain the fact that "they're just not interested"? Why is cultural bias not an explanation of this lack of interest? And if it isn…

There are real genetic differences in how the brains of men and women work. Men and women do not have the same interests, the same goals, nor the same desires. To claim otherwise is ignoring established scientific facts. Studies on this subject always lead to the same conclusion: That women are just less interested in tech jobs, just as men are less interested in social jobs.[0] I presented the OP with a objective, d…

The data you present does not explain anything. It is just an observation. Yet you present it as an explanation to another observation.

By analogy, it's like answering the question "why do cows eat grass?" with "because cows are herbivores", which is really just restating the question. An actual explanation would require understanding how cows have evolved to become herbivores in the first place, and not meat-eaters, like, say, wolves. Without such an explanation, there is no way to understand why cows are herbivores and wolves are not.

By analogy, without any understanding of why women are not interested in technology jobs, there is no way to understand the gender disparity in technology.

>> You can ignore the data all you like, but please don't try to drag me into an argument with that.

This is very unpleasant. First you assume I'm "ignoring the data" when I actually discussed what the data means. Then you assign a motive to me, that I'm "trying to drag you into an argument". Please don't do that.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>have spent most of their professional lives as men and who have often contributed to exactly the kind of working environment that makes womens' lives difficult as tech workers This is certainly not the case for all trans women. You may not feel like you need to join a community like this, but I don't think it's fair to then speak for/to the trans community saying that none of us should. I've heard things similar to…

>> This is certainly not the case for all trans women. You may not feel like you need to join a community like this, but I don't think it's fair to then speak for/to the trans community saying that none of us should. I accept that there are differences between trans women, but I believe my description covers a strong majority. I don't speak "for" anyone, of course. >> It ends up with us being excluded _everywhere_ be…

>> I accept that there are differences between trans women, but I believe my description covers a strong majority. I don't speak "for" anyone, of course.

In my experience as a trans woman in tech and very involved in the MN transgender community for many years, is that your perspective is definitely not shared by the majority. I know my argument is just as anecdotal as yours, but I only can recall a couple trans women out of the hundreds I have met through community work that would agree with you. Most of the women I work with absolutely want to join women's spaces and would be interested in Leap or similar industry groups for women. But again, this is anecdotal. Please don't speak for the "majority" of us without backing it up with polling data at minimum.

>> My concern is that in the case of women-only spaces where trans women are welcome, many trans women will join, responding to their need to belong, which you express and which I feel myself. And that given enough trans women joining, a few of them will eventually display those behavioural traits you can expect from people who grew up like men and that are the traits the community seems to want to keep out.

All groups have to manage certain individuals.

In your opinion, how much gendered socialization is enough for a trans woman to be acceptable to be able to join female spaces? ie. At what maximum age do you think they needed to start transition to access women's spaces? If not at all, then how does your socialization argument hold up against those that transition at a very young age? At what point is a woman "fully" socialized in their gendered role and ready to join women's spaces?

Additionally, how should facilitators of said spaces check to make sure the cis women joining had enough gendered socialization to join? Should they accept tomboys? Butch women? Lesbians?

What about trans men who were socialized as a women before transition? Or inter-sexed folk that identify as women?

Should there be any consideration that many trans women end up picking up (effectually) on many of the socializations women receive while growing up?

Socialization has its own issues with essentialism, and often feels stuck in the second-wave feminism of the 70s. No two women share the same experiences. Gendered socialization differs dramatically across intersectional lines and when referenced in such ways often assumes and superimposes affluent, Christian, and white experiences as the majority and proper socialization. Socialization arguments often remind of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Modern intersectional feminism embraces the intersectional identities of women, trans and cis alike (among many other informing aspects).

>> But this is not yet the case and I really think that trans women need to give some space to cis women until it is and in order to help make it so.

Often I find these lines of thought to be thinly veiled attempts at othering trans folk, erasing their identity, and forcing them out of gender spaces entirely. If transgender women are to stay out of women's spaces while not being accepted in men's spaces, where do they belong?

When it comes to gendered groups and spaces, I would maintain that identity should be the deciding factor.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#339
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do I find a mens club repugnant? Yes, but I do appreciate comfortable chairs. As for Groucho, I suppose the subtlety of his humor falls on deaf ears.

So, how does it relate then? What did you add by including it? It's a famous quote, and I remember mentioning it to a college professor when we covered Poe's 'The Black Cat.' I'm all for learning. Please explain.

It's about exclusion. The Marx family were Jews. Men-only clubs (just "clubs" back then) excluded Jews. Groucho's feigning snobbery was self-deprecating, but also allegorical.

Walled gardens are for suckers.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#340
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