James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#331

Post by bmelton » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:31 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #300

Pyxl101 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The differences between men and women are a legitimate topic of scientific inquiry, and therefore discussion. It should certainly be reasonable to explore whether differences in traits leads to differences in preferences or interests such as occupation.

Of course it's an important and legitimate topic of discussion. Just don't discuss it at work. It's called professionalism.

Does that include diversity training that focuses on implicit and explicit consciousness bias differences between men and woman?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#332

Post by koonsolo » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:31 PM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

You must be from US.

As a European, I find all these things very absurd. Like the guys with the "dongle" joke that both got fired [1], and if I remember correctly, so did the woman reporting them.

Maybe you should all start by treating each other with more respect, whoever it is. And don't go witch-hunting.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes...

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#333

Post by lukev » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:31 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #146

lukev wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Did we read the same memo? One of his central points is that the representation gap between men and women in technology is due to different biological distributions. From the memo: > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leader…

> the consensus is that biological sex differences are not that big of an effect, certainly not enough to explain the gender disparity in tech. Whether sex differences explain the gender disparity in tech isn't even the kind of question that cog dev folks ask.

Except it is. Damore himself cites a study by David Schmitt at Bradley University, indicating that women had certain personality traits across cultures. What did Shmitt have to say about Damore, when interviewed?

> “It is unclear to me that this sex difference would play a role in success within the Google workplace (in particular, not being able to handle stresses of leadership in the workplace. That’s a huge stretch to me.)”

For more, check out the citations on this article: https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/16/16153740/tech-diversity-p...

Finally, even if the facts were true that women on averaged perform worse in tech, how do you want to use that information? Cancel all the sensitivity programs designed to solve other very real problems in tech? Or are you saying not only that biology "plays a role", but that _nothing else does_ so we should just completely ignore this as an issue?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#334

Post by viridian » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:31 PM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #325

viridian wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a minor aside, but I don't think Joe is a conservative. I think that he said during the midnight election comedy stream that had he not promised to vote for Gary Johnson when he came on the show, that he would've had to pull the lever for Hillary. He doesn't like social justice stuff, but other than that, he's kind of a big hippy.

and denies the moon landing. That doesn't make him right wing, but it sure makes him a less credible person. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/02/26/jo...

He denied it 11 years ago you mean, by that blog post. He has changed his stance, as seen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mmlmxamw_k

You should listen to his episode with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, they talk about the mindset of denialism quite a bit.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#335

Post by Idontknowmyuser » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:32 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #239

ng12 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this stuff has been studied for years: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3030621/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4129348/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4157091/ Maybe these studies are wrong, maybe the conclusions Damore drew were wrong (I certainly think they are). However, I think witch-hunting people for asking questions about sensitive topics is a much more clear and…

I just don't think you understand the problem here. Nobody is arguing that men and women aren't biologically different. Of course they are. The point is whether those biological differences significantly affect your ability to be a professional engineer. And you or Damore have provided zero evidence of this.

if bilogical reasons makes you more likely to study a field other than engineering. I say that this biological reasons make you less likely to become an engineer. and by "you" I mean a random woman. Of course some woman want to go and study engineering and they have the right to do so and be hired in a fair hiring process.

No body is arguing against the right of women to become engineers. It's just stating that the assumption that "hidden bias" exists if a field is not at 50/50 is untrue. and by the way, I'm yet to find any proof for that. if you find a study that indicates no discirimination leads to 50/50 in all fields or at least in engineering I will be happy to read it.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#336

Post by stevenwoo » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:32 PM UTC

coloneltcb wrote: post #159

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

he could be CTO of Breitbart

Or Cambridge Analytica or Project Veritas or Fox News or Sky or the Wall Street Journal or Heritage Foundation, it's not that small a pool, off the top of my head.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#337

Post by zamalek » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:32 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #193

zamalek wrote: post #95

> illegal hiring quotas Whether or not this is illegal, or true, this is an anti-pattern. If you want representation (and PR) hiring quotas are great; however, if you truly want to empower they work against your goals. At the end of the day any person who walks into a job because of a quota will question, "did I get this job because of my gender/race/creed/orientation?" While you have provided them with opportunity i…

Making someone question whether they are qualified is better than not hiring them at all. Quotas are useful if you have reason to believe that your hiring process is biased and you are missing out on qualified candidates. That way you're not passing up too many candidates from specific groups that you're having a hard time characterizing.

Quotas do have their place for instigating change, to more correctly state my views (which are incredibly complex, just like the subject is): I think that they rapidly outgrow their usefulness. If you have women in hire/fire positions, in theory the bias should work itself out. It probably wouldn't in reality.

It's a nasty situation. We want to make progress as society, which means quantifying that progress (quotas make this impossible). However, at the same time we are trying to make that progress to represent individuals and, yes, place them in lucrative jobs to level the playing field (which quotas assist).

> reason to believe that your hiring process is biased and you are missing out on qualified candidates

That is to my point. How could you justify that position if you have no way of measuring it? Find 50 lions and 50 white lions, put them in an enclosure and ask a scientist to tell you what percentage of lions are white based on that sample.

I'm not saying that we don't have to solve this, or that it has been solved. It hasn't. I really question our approach (and I don't have a better alternative, apart from eradicating gender stereotypes from a young age).

Are we still in the 1990's with a social equality facade?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#338

Post by verroq » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:33 PM UTC

lukev wrote: post #284

verroq wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between women are on average less capable (or what your interpretation seems to imply - women programmers are worse than men) and what is written which are there may be less qualified female candidates due to biological differences. The latter is an obvious statement however people seems keen to deliberately misinterpret it to fuel their rightous outrage. I’ll use high jump as an example. Suppos…

Two things: 1. Saying that women are "on average" worse programmers is exactly why people are upset with him. He doesn't need to be some kind of insane absolutist in order for what he said to be very problematic. 2. Even if there are statistically significant sex differences with regard to programming ability and inclination, there are also historical and sociological factors that are working against women in tech. D…

1. Except he never even said women on average are worse. Secondly people being upset is not an argument against the truthiness of statement, no matter how problematic.

2. “How dare he question the effectiveness of affirmative action” is also not an argument.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#339

Post by 282883392 » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:33 PM UTC

Are there (in part) biological reasons for the differences in behavior between men and women? Clearly there are sociological differences. Damore clearly did not separate the two ideas or their relative impact on the issue, which led to the enormous amount of publicity.

The idea that the tech industry needs to change their approach to incentivizing women to the workplace still stands regardless.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#340

Post by wang_li » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:34 PM UTC

bsaul wrote: post #190

thenayr wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, you know, he could realize what a monumental fuck up he made and try and make a difference for the better. The dude literally let himself be paraded around by the alt-right and neo-nazi groups as a hero. -----------EDIT below--------------- Zero sympathy for this dirtbag. He's un-hireable because he deserves to be. Future advice for Damore wannabees When alt-right Twitter agrees with your world-views, you're doin…

Yes, that's the spirit. Let's burn the witch. Unless i missed something, the guy never advocated violence or gender discrimination, or making anyone's life miserable. He expressed opinion on scientific explanation. You may find it very stupid, but what in your mind makes you think it's OK to destroy a man's life for his opinion, and then i suppose pretend to be someone with high moral grounds.

His mistake was assuming that people would be able to have an abstract, intellectual discussion of the subject. Unfortunately colleges and universities have spent more than a decade churning out graduates who have been taught that a good tool to attain power and status is to have an emotional, overreaction to anything that let's them assert cultural dominance over someone.