Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already • Hacker News Board

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#331

Post by patientplatypus » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 4:04 AM UTC

jknoepfler wrote: post #247

patientplatypus wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh...I hear this sort of thing all the time and I find it sooo obnoxious. Look, the reason that all the students go to university is to make money. Like 90%+ of undergrads go there to make money so whether it "technically" should be a monastery of cloistered academics pondering the universe (based on some high minded notion of what learning "ought" to be for) is besides the point. University costs a shit ton of mone…

There are two things wrong with this perspective. First, if you walk out of a four year degree in computer science without a strong foundation in discrete mathematics, algorithms, data structures, and at least one of distributed systems theory, stochastic systems theory, control, statistics/machine learning, AI, data visualization, or design, you've stunted your horizons for growth as an engineer pretty badly. I use…

Well, not that it matters to my argument, but I did go to university, and did well (in the academic sense - much of my time would probably have been better spent drinking and networking rather than getting good grades). Personally I think it was an incredible waste of time. Even though I worked incredibly hard in many diverse subject areas, most of what I learned was taught at such an abstract level as to be completely unusable in any practical sense. Almost all of what I needed I later learned on the job as needed. Of all the things you've listed, why can't you just look them up on the internet or hire a tutor at worst?

As far as "leveling up as a human being", books are free - go sit in a library. Hell, grab a kindle; most of the cool stuff that I learned about the human experience I learned from talking with others, staring at the sky, hiking in mountains, and reading free books that people on the internet recommend. None of this requires taking out the equivalent of a mortgage or listening to someone lecture on it. If you want a lecture, those are free online too!

I just get the sense that university is used as a filter to differentiate yourself from people who are "below you" - not as smart, not as hard working, not as "mature as a human being". But the main barrier to get into a university seems to be connections and money, neither of which I have a huge amount of respect for. Many of the wealthiest and well connected people in the world are huge assholes, and many of the poorest and least connected are incredibly wise and kind (and intelligent and hard working). It feels like a way to separate yourself from the unwashed hoi polloi and put a barrier to entry between yourself and other people who could do your job. In that sense university encourages laziness!

Overall, I just get this sense that university is this bullshit thing we all just agree to participate in because, for those who go they get a monetary benefit, even though everyone knows its just this bullshit thing. That monetary benefit comes from being a class filter, a networking tool for like minded rich people to find other like minded rich people, and probably a few other class effects I don't really understand. I thought when I was younger that as I got older that maybe I would get more jaded and just accept bullshit things. It would certainly make my life easier to do what other people do and not fight against the tide. But if anything I've become more altruistic and romantic, I want the world to be more honest and people to do the right thing.

I don't know. I've probably benefitted from it even though I wished people judged me based on other qualities that are more important.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#332

Post by eropple » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 4:06 AM UTC

rhaps0dy wrote: post #92

blurbleblurble wrote: post #73

> Companies find it incredibly hard to reliably staff positions with hard-working generalists who operate autonomously and have high risk tolerances. This is not the modal employee, including at places which are justifiably proud of the skill/diligence/etc of their employees. This one. Every job I see when I go looking is 40+ hrs a week, likely with plenty of idle time and projects I don't believe in. Part of this is…

I think you framed your anecdotal evidence as supporting the OP's statement, but also that you misunderstood such statement; and you actually present evidence against it. If companies find it hard to reliably staff generalist positions, _and_ you're a generalist as you claim, then you would find it _easy_ to get a job.

I have shipped React and React Native apps. I've built nontrivial open source infrastructure/devops tools that are used at Companies You Have Heard Of. I've done backend stuff for NASDAQ-listed companies.

I'm not a web or mobile developer. I'm not a "devops engineer", and I'm not a "backend engineer." I'm a problem-solver. But to many (most?) companies, this means that I need to be classfied into a track. I need to be an X or a Y or a Z. I can't adopt those roles when necessary--I need to be slotted in and just go.

That doesn't really work for me. Which is a major reason why I'm a software consultant now. I'd go do a full-time job that respected my complete disinterest in being pegged to a particular role and was able to give me the latitude to solve cross-cutting problems at scale. But that's a hard role to define, a hard role to hire for, and a hard role to evaluate--which is why they, and other generalist-focused roles, don't often exist.

It's easy to get a job. I can walk into almost anywhere in Boston if they're hiring and get an offer; I interview extremely well. I can't get a job that actually leverages my skills.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#333

Post by patientplatypus » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 4:07 AM UTC

extra88 wrote: post #241

patientplatypus wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh...I hear this sort of thing all the time and I find it sooo obnoxious. Look, the reason that all the students go to university is to make money. Like 90%+ of undergrads go there to make money so whether it "technically" should be a monastery of cloistered academics pondering the universe (based on some high minded notion of what learning "ought" to be for) is besides the point. University costs a shit ton of mone…

> the reason that all the students go to university is to make money. Like 90%+ of undergrads go there to make money Which is it, "all" or "90%?" I went to a private liberal arts college so maybe that automatically puts me and my classmates in the 10% but I did not think the overwhelming majority of us were there to make money. The fact that lots of students still major in subjects that can be very worthwhile and val…

> the reason that all the students go to university is to make money. Like 90%+ of undergrads go there to make money Which is it, "all" or "90%?"

Ok come on man. I said 90%+. Don't quibble just to be a prick.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#334

Post by jimktrains2 » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 4:08 AM UTC

blacksqr wrote: post #130

jimktrains2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they lost the war because of bad execution. They had feifdom fights in the upper ranks and Hitler wasn't able to have anyone tell him he had bad ideas (e.g. war on two fronts and locking tanks in Paris instead of letting them be commanded as needed during d-day (which again came down to infighting)). Germany was also being worn thin on supplies. It's not as if they were in perfect shape minus allied bombings. Also…

You clearly need to re-read John Gill.

You're going to have to flush out your meaning more. Are you implying Nazi Germany didn't make quite a few large mistakes that are often pointed to as how they lost momentum and failed to repel D-Day?

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#335

Post by toasterlovin » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 4:09 AM UTC

fjsolwmv wrote: post #321

toasterlovin wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe the causal factor for both class and higher education is intelligence. The Bell Curve makes a compelling case that the transition away from agriculture toward knowledge work over the last 100 years has created a society in which intelligence is funneled into higher education and from there into high paying professions.

The Bell Curve is a famous case of quasi-science. You are putting statistical speculation up against centuries of well-documented explicit discrimination policies.

Have you read The Bell Curve?

You may disagree with some of its conclusions (I personally am skeptical of its conclusions about racial differences in IQ), but to call it pseudo science is, I think, unfair. FWIW, Steven Pinker, who is about as thoughtful and level headed as they come, agrees:

https://mobile.twitter.com/sapinker/status/84691284703672320...

And, anyway, the point I was making had nothing to do with racial IQ differences. It was referring to what the rest of The Bell Curve is about (discussion of racial IQ differences makes up only about 25% of the book): how the US society’s transition away from most people working in agriculture toward most people working at desks has created a class structure stratified by intelligence.

It’s actually a shame that the book discusses racial IQ differences at all, because everyone got hung up on that and totally missed what is, IMO, a much more important point. And I think it explains a lot about current politics in the US.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#336

Post by cannonedhamster » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 4:15 AM UTC

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #244

rhaps0dy wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you framed your anecdotal evidence as supporting the OP's statement, but also that you misunderstood such statement; and you actually present evidence against it. If companies find it hard to reliably staff generalist positions, _and_ you're a generalist as you claim, then you would find it _easy_ to get a job.

Companies sometimes aren't honest about their job postings asking too much, and instead blame the worker population on not having the skills they need. The more skills you are trying to get filled for one position, the less likely a candidate will match all of those skills. Take any job posting with 20-30 lines of skills or requirements and it's really no wonder they can't find someone that meets all or even half of…

Not to mention the companies that specifically write the ads so that they can claim their person doesn't exist and bring in an H1-B holder for half the rate. The fact that these shysters ruined it for the companies that actually need good people at good pay is a major problem.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#337

Post by justonepost » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 4:19 AM UTC

My god, that read like someone did way too much meth or weed or both at the same time. How in hell did this get upvoted..

it's like a huge collection of click bait, overly vauge, broad, and hyperbolic with zero signal density.

ooohhhh I get it now, it's patio11. Ok, well, all is forgiven then. He's a nice guy.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#338

Post by School-Cotton » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 4:21 AM UTC

dsp1234 wrote: post #146

aeorgnoieang wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to write real proofs (tho I didn't fail completely if it wasn't free of errors) for my U.S. math undergrad degree.

Did those proofs have to be novel, or were the proofs of already known concepts?

They have to be novel in my experience.

I have a BS in Mathematics from a mediocre school (University of Arizona) and exams were always "prove this fact (which you have never heard of before)", never "what is the proof of XYZ theorem (which we studied)"

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#339

Post by School-Cotton » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 4:22 AM UTC

hugs wrote: post #31

jasonlfunk wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I often explained that CS was more like a math degree than an engineering degree.

Ironically, an engineering degree is also like a math degree.

No it is not. I studied math and the engineers only went as far as differential equations, basic (non proof based) complex analysis, and so on. There were zero engineers in theoretical classes.

Re: Things Many People Find Too Obvious to Have Told You Already

#340

Post by curun1r » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 4:25 AM UTC

brucephillips wrote: post #231

claudiulodro wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The insightful part for me is that you can get better or novel products in areas where the "when , use " is the dominant habit by optimizing or changing the habit. Some more examples: - Keurig coffee makers fundamentally changed the coffee habit for many people. - Netflix fundamentally changed the "going to the video store" habit. Making coffee and watching movies were already habits for many people, but it was possi…

Is there any product that doesn't fit this pattern?

There are some products that serve a need that doesn't occur often enough to become habit forming. For instance, there are apps/services that help you when your car breaks down. Marketing a product/service like that is a fundamentally different proposition from something that's intended to be used daily/weekly/monthly.