Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

331–340 of 441 posts

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#331

Post by Lon7 »

shiven wrote: post #320
nilkn wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't fully understand what you're asking. Could you clarify? Are you suggesting they might go extinct? Or something else?

There is more than one question I am asking - (1). Is there any scientifically sound study proving that the quality of protein from plant sources is equivalent to or better than from dairy products? (2). Is there any reproducible, quantitative data on leaving milk producing cows to fend for themselves vs caring for them in small -to- mid size "cow caring" setups (farms, one-cow ops etc.)? I ask this because both my m…

If you are interested in these questions I think it will be worth it to spend some time and do a bit of research, no?

You can look up Peter Singer and Yuval Noah Harari to start with and read what they have written about this. I mention them because they write well and mainly stick to scientifically supported ideas.

I haven't decided where I stand on the issues yet, but with a little research it has become apparent that you can have a very healthy diet without any protein form animals.

I've also discovered that more and more philosophers, ethicists, biologists etc, are starting to make the argument that our factory farming of animals may be the the worst crime in human history.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#332

Post by shiven »

Lon7 wrote: post #331
shiven wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more than one question I am asking - (1). Is there any scientifically sound study proving that the quality of protein from plant sources is equivalent to or better than from dairy products? (2). Is there any reproducible, quantitative data on leaving milk producing cows to fend for themselves vs caring for them in small -to- mid size "cow caring" setups (farms, one-cow ops etc.)? I ask this because both my m…

If you are interested in these questions I think it will be worth it to spend some time and do a bit of research, no? You can look up Peter Singer and Yuval Noah Harari to start with and read what they have written about this. I mention them because they write well and mainly stick to scientifically supported ideas. I haven't decided where I stand on the issues yet, but with a little research it has become apparent t…

Thanks for the pointers on where to start looking. This is helpful.

The modern “factory farming” is not something I care to defend for any intent or purpose. It may as well disappear tomorrow, as far as I am concerned.

However, I still see no argument against deeply caring domestication of a small number/herd of animals, providing them food, shelter and care in exchange for milk or unfertilized eggs. Can’t seem to find a convincing argument against that in my current ethics framework.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#334

Post by Nomentatus »

why15characters wrote: post #285
Nomentatus wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a massive difference in taste, and an objective measure that correlates well with this - namely, the thickness of the collagen sheath just underneath the shell (eggs being single cells.) It's an excellent correlate of the overall health and nutritional value of the egg. If the egg can't even protect itself from breakage well, the rest of the egg isn't ideal, either.

>There's a massive difference in taste You feel that way, but all evidence says otherwise. >and an objective measure that correlates well with this - namely, the thickness of the collagen sheath just underneath the shell Measuring that is objective, but there is no evidence it correlates with taste at all. >(eggs being single cells.) I honestly don't know how to say this nicely. You expect people to take your pseudo-…

Next you'll be saying that all carrots taste the same. Or wheat (my grandfather was an elevator operator - it doesn't at all according to his account, due principally to local soil conditions - different geology.)

Science isn't whatever meets your expectations. While the egg isn't functioning as one big working cell, it's not made of cells, it is what became of just one cell. More here if you want the discussion. https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ry2ug/are_chick...

As for what healthy eggs looked like, I'm guessing you haven't spent much time on a farm. The fragile, rather sickly eggs you're so used to buying now were unknown on farms fifty years ago, when I was younger.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#335

Post by Dylanfm »

If you’re interested in a recipe for running a profitable, small farm I recommend the book The Market Gardener by Jean-Martin Fortier.

There are a lot of other examples around of similar farmers, e.g Curtis Stone, Ridgedale Permaculture (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Knn7ZH4Tiw)

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#336

Post by Nomentatus »

scott_s wrote: post #223
Nomentatus wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest efficiency is nutritional, and taste - varieties that travel very, very well trade off a lot of nutrition for that trait.

From the studies I have heard about, there is no measurable nutritional difference between organic and non-organic food. See https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/no-health-benefits-from-org... I am unaware of such studies for small farms versus large farms.

This has nothing to do with "organic" anything - the conditions of breeding - but modern breeds of vegetables and fruit. There's no shortage of evidence of the difference, and the decline in vitamin content over the last many decades, in the U.S.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#337

Post by Nomentatus »

mseebach wrote: post #220
Nomentatus wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest efficiency is nutritional, and taste - varieties that travel very, very well trade off a lot of nutrition for that trait.

If you're buying a better product for a price you're considering fair, you're not meaningfully "buying local" - the product you prefer just happens to be locally produced (and possibly can only be locally produced). The kind of buying local that you need campaigns to encourage people to do, is generally either more expensive or poorer quality than the non-local alternative.

Better is the whole point of buying local - the can't buy traditional varieties remotely because they don't ship well. Of course you COULD buy shabby shipping varieties locally, but that was never what Alice was about, and it would be a silly thing to do.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#338

Post by why15characters »

Retric wrote: post #48
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in the land of North American industrial mega-corp agriculture would 80 acres be "micro" anything. The farms next to me (I live rural) are 20-30 acres and are farmed by professional subcontractors that employ dozens of (immigrant seasonal) labour for picking etc. and use heavy machinery that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and are shared between multiple farms. Likely if your old boss operated a 'micro' f…

My dad and grandfather both kept 2-3 acre food producing gardens as hobbies. So, I am well aware of what's involved. At those scales you want machinery, but you can use a Garden Tiller instead of a disk plow behind a tractor etc. Their are actually a lot of moderately expensive tools that scale up to ~80 acres without hitting the very high costs of an actual farm. Also often possible to find an actual farmer willing…

>At those scales you want machinery, but you can use a Garden Tiller instead of a disk plow behind a tractor etc

This whole thing is like those cheesy TV shows portraying "hacking". Where you aren't quite sure if they don't know anything or they do know and are deliberately trying to give people an aneurysm by being as nonsensical as possible.

> Their are actually a lot of moderately expensive tools that scale up to ~80 acres without hitting the very high costs of an actual farm

There is nothing that scales effectively from 2 acres to 80 acres. And 80 acres is an actual farm. "Farm" does not exclusively refer to massive field crop operations. Do you think your tomatoes came from a 1200 acre field and were harvested with a 500 horsepower combine? There is a world beyond just growing livestock feed.

>~2,000 hours of effort is a significant hobby, but less than many WoW players as a direct comparison.

WoW isn't physical labor in the hot sun either. It is far more likely that you don't know what an acre is than it is that your father and grandfather worked difficult full time jobs for no money on top of their actual full time jobs.

>10k in revenue before expenses is not much and is easy for that to end up negative after expenses and even in the best case your likely paying yourself well below minimum wage.

It is for 2-3 acres. And expenses aren't even remotely close to 10k for such a tiny vineyard. Our neighbor has 30 acres of grapes and just barely spends 20k/year. Fuel and equipment costs are minor because you are using a small tractor and all you use it for is spraying a couple times a year and hauling around bins of grapes at harvest time. The only real expense is labor cost for harvesting.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#339

Post by aplummer »

roadnottaken wrote: post #306
kimburgess wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a great place to visit and a great place to be from. Not so much a great place to actually be. I'll definitely echo this. I grew up on a farm / nature refuge in Australia. It's beautiful to go back to, but I could not live there again. My family hovers around the poverty line, work long, hard hours, and are completely at the mercy of the climate and other difficult to control external factors for their lively…

Good points, but I totally disagree about the suburbs. We live on a quiet cul de sac in a very suburban neighborhood. We’re 20 minutes from mountains, trails, beach, schools, stores, and work. It’s safe and friendly and our kids play with other kids in the street every day. Seems like a pretty sweet compromise to me, but YMMV.

It can vary a lot, town planning goes from meticulously fine tuned for successful community, to max number of houses and fewer services for property developer profit.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#340

Post by syedkarim »

ratacat wrote: post #50
nabla9 wrote: post #39

Some commentators here have difficulty of understanding how small farming can be profitable. It's relatively easy to explain. They are not selling just the product. Just like microbreweries, small farms sell for people who want more than just a beer or lettuce. They want to distinguish themselves and buy the feeling of authentic life and values. Consumer pays more for "small farm" even if the product is not any diffe…

I pay ten dollars a gallon for fresh non pasteurized milk from a local family that has seven cows. I don't buy a lifestyle from them, I buy fucking good milk from animals that are loved like family, and I'm proud to be helping them make a living doing something that is good for everyone(including the cows). It's not a lifestyle, it's just supporting people who aren't shitting on everyone's future.

>>animals that are loved like family

What about the calves that are taken away from their mothers (and mothers that have their calves taken from them) for that fucking good milk?

Post reply on HN