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Sony plans to make vinyl records again

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Re: Sony plans to make vinyl records again

#331
Turntable nerd here (over 5000 posts on a forum dedicated to turntables).

Let me give you my take on this, as unbiased as possible:

Records do not automatically sound better than CDs. However, there are many, many cases in which the LP sounds better than the same CD.

First let me dispel some myths of vinyl playing:

- "Records wear": Assuming your turntable is a good one (no cheap Crosley record players), and your stylus is not worn, and your stylus pressure is below 3.0 grams (as it would be the case in ANY half-good tonearm and pickup), and your record is clean, and the pickup is correctly aligned, then record wear is a non-issue. Under those conditions records were found to last 1000 plays with no significant sound degradation on an AES (Audio Engineering Society) paper. And this with 1965-67 pickup technology. Modern pickups and styli are still gentler.

Of course, if any of the above conditions is not met, the record will wear!

- "Records sound with pops and crackles": This does not happen with a good turntable and well cared records. Record reproduction is mostly free from such noises. Note that lower quality turntables do emphasize noises caused by dirt, as well.

- "Any turntable gives you high quality sound, better than a CD": This is a favorite one of the hipsters. There are many turntables out there that are bad, poor, or mediocre. You need a good turntable to enjoy the sound. Fortunately due to the big used-TT market, you can get turntables that were pretty expensive when new, for little money.

Now, WHY should one play/buy records instead of CDs (or MP3/etc)?

As a music lover, it is very important to be able to play LPs. The main reasons are:

1. There is a huge amount of music that isn't available on CD nor MP3. For example records from record labels that went bankrupt. Or music that simply is not popular/mainstream. Sometimes you can find MP3 transcriptions of such records on the internet, but often those are done with poor care giving really bad audio, compared to having the record played by you on a good system.

2. There are cases in which the LP record is much, much better mastered than the comparable CD or MP3. Example: Frank Zappa's You are What you is. The CD was done using really exaggerated, wrong compression which truly destroys the sound, and you don't need to have any kind of high-end system or "golden ears" to notice the difference. It is that striking.

Another example? AC-DC's "back in black". The modern (2000s) remaster has heavy, dynamics-destroying compression compared to the original (1981) release. Which you can enjoy buying the LP record.

3. There are cases in which the LP record gives you the truly original release of the album. That is, before the producer (or artist) subsequently decided to alter the mix, do overdubs on it, etc. Example: Frank Zappa "Hot Rats" record; the 1969 original release is radically different from the CD release due to all sorts of edits and remixes done.

4. Music done on the LP era (1948-late 80s) was intended to be released on LP, so there is a convention that albums follow:

- Sides: A versus B. Sometimes the album will have a different concept in side A versus B, for example A dedicated to more danceable music, B dedicated to ballads, etc.

- Hit tracks are expected to be located at the beginning on each side. You see the track that is a beginning of each side and you can bet this was an important track for the artist.

- The last track of the side is usually a softer, mellower track.

These conventions are interesting and are preserved when you buy the LP.

5. Artwork. The difference in picture area between a CD and the LP is striking. Gatefold records (there are many of them) give you about 64x32cm (25x13") picture area, which is a lot. If the gatefold is triple (like in Beastie Boys' "Paul's Boutique"), this is an area of 96x32cm (38x13"), which is huge.

6. Printed lyrics & Bonus material: Since the sleeves are so big, many kinds of different 'extras' can be included with each record, and sometimes they do add a lot of value to the experience. For example:

- "Captain Fantastic" (Elton John) includes a whole comic book inside.

- Stevie Wonder's "Innervisions" (1976) includes a nice booklet with all the printed lyrics in lavish style.

- Many records came with stickers or posters.

- Devo's "Duty now for the future" cover art can be pried apart for framing.

- etc.

Basically, the LP record adds much more to the "experience" of listening to the album. At least for a music lover.

Re: Sony plans to make vinyl records again

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CDs are mastered with 44KHz sampling rate which is now generally accepted as too low for high quality audio. According to who?

According to a lot of music lovers and studio engineers, if you are within that scene.

Read “gullible audiophiles.”

Re: Sony plans to make vinyl records again

#333
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is theoric considerations, not practical. With all due respect, there is nothing remotely practical about the theoretical ability of any medium to record frequencies above 22Khz. Do you play your CD4 quadrophonic records to your pets? On what? Ribbon tweeters? Furthermore, the ability to perceive dynamic range attenuates with frequency. So once again, you are back at the limits of human hearing, even if I acce…

> And what you say about DACs has not been true for many years. These days, even run-of-the-mill DACs employ oversampling. Oversampling does not solve the issue i have commented, which is that 44KHz is too low. Read about filtering at the ADC and DAC stages. Read about the pros/cons of using FIR-digital, IIR-digital, brickwall-analog filters at them. Oversampling with a FIR filter was already used on the second CD pl…

Uh huh. And if you reverse the polarity of the neutron flow, all these problems go away.

Seriously, you’re just spouting audiophile mumbo-jumbo and confusing issues encountered during mastering with limitations of the final recorded media.

I’m done here. Arguing with audiophiles is pointless.

Re: Sony plans to make vinyl records again

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But vinyl album art is bigger, which is nice if you are interested in having a cool collection of art/objects.

If you scan a 5" CD album cover at 2400 DPI, you get a 12000x12000 image, from which you can probably render a reasonable poster, if you like.

I don't believe that you really think that's a practical alterative.

Re: Sony plans to make vinyl records again

#335
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And what you say about DACs has not been true for many years. These days, even run-of-the-mill DACs employ oversampling. Oversampling does not solve the issue i have commented, which is that 44KHz is too low. Read about filtering at the ADC and DAC stages. Read about the pros/cons of using FIR-digital, IIR-digital, brickwall-analog filters at them. Oversampling with a FIR filter was already used on the second CD pl…

Uh huh. And if you reverse the polarity of the neutron flow, all these problems go away. Seriously, you’re just spouting audiophile mumbo-jumbo and confusing issues encountered during mastering with limitations of the final recorded media. I’m done here. Arguing with audiophiles is pointless.

This is not audiophile stuff, this is audio engineering stuff, that you would find on AES papers for example.

Re: Sony plans to make vinyl records again

#336
Somebody should try if you can print records on laser printer. If you print circular lines, the needle should stay between the walls of ink. Transparency might be better than paper, because it is smoother. I do not have record player anymore, so I cannot test this theory. On 78 speed record those squiggles are huge, and well with capabilities of laser printer.

Re: Sony plans to make vinyl records again

#337

Remember, folks. An audiophile is someone who listens to equipment, not music. He can hear the difference between 0.1% THD and 1% THD, but can't tell Mozart from Beethoven, or Kenny G from Coltrane. When people claim about how they are emotionally moved by certain speakers, but not others, chances are the music is shit. When the music is good, I'm still moved by a 64 kb/s encoding using 8 bit uLaw, played through lap…

> When the music is good, I'm still moved by a 64 kb/s encoding using 8 bit uLaw, played through laptop speakers. I'm not an audiophile, but I disagree with your assertion. I did love going to concerts in the 90's and early 00's. In February of 1993, I saw Stone Temple Pilots opening for Megadeth at the Fargo Civic Memorial Auditorium (not the Fargo Dome, think bigger high school gym). I liked their album, but was pr…

[deleted]

Re: Sony plans to make vinyl records again

#338
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that an eInk Kindle is "close enough" to a paper book in terms of immersion for me. But reading on my iPad (or even worse, computer) definitely is not. I get notifications, there's always the temptation to jump out and "just check email," etc. With the Kindle there is no distraction, and for me that seems to be more important than the tactile experience of a printed book (though I do still enjoy printed books)…

Personally I've found that the loss of one spatial dimension in the transition from paper to ebook actually makes the book less engaging and more difficult to retain details. I think (again, my personal experience) that reading while also having a tactile sense of where I am in the book (say ~20% of the way through) makes it easier to remember smaller details; perhaps the physical book helps my brain create a sort of…

That's a very interesting observation. It hadn't occurred to me before, but I do think there's some truth in that for me as well.

Re: Sony plans to make vinyl records again

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frank Zappa also was releasing recordings in the age prior to the Loudness War. Digital is a superior format. But I still buy vinyl because a good half of vinyl recordings out there aren't completely fucked by applying a compressor that destroys the dynamic range.

Vinyl recordings are absolutely degraded by a compressor; it's necessary to reduce the dynamics so that the record can be cut, and so the needle doesn't skip out on playback. Something has to make the material fit into the limited dynamic range. There is also pre and post equalization applied: Wikipedia info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization The bass has the shit rolled down out of it, and is boosted b…

Degraded, yes. But as you mentioned, the RIAA curve gets applied back by your phono preamp, which takes care of a lot of the issue.

Modern digital recordings are often ran through a compressor to the point where there's zero headroom left. Hell, there are albums where things outright clip even on the lossless version on the CD. Plenty of others have so little wiggle room that you'll see clipping on any compressed format.

Certainly, there are plenty of albums out there that use the same shitty masters as the CD. But plenty of others don't.

One of my favorite albums from the past few years, The Flesh Prevails by Fallujah, for example, has a completely different master for the vinyl. The dynamic range is great. The CD master, to me, has several songs that are nearly un-listenable due to the mastering on the CD.

I'd love if I could just pay for the good master in a digital format. But as someone who is primarily a metalhead, masters are shitty far too often.

So I have to wait to find out if the vinyl releases are better, and then buy and then rip them if so. Then spend 5 or 6 hours per side manually removing crackles and pops and other noises...

I don't like it. But it is what it is!

Re: Sony plans to make vinyl records again

#340
post #14

As long as nobody is claiming they sound better, and it's just for fun and nostalgia, I'm all for it. It really bugs me when vinyl buffs try to argue their rig sounds better or warmer or whatever than the same rig with a digital (or non-vinyl analog) source.

From a technical point of view I get why the argument is stupid, but playing a well pressed/mixed record has a visceral pleasure that is hard to explain. It's kind of like driving a manual car. Sure, it's dated and we've invented safer, easier ways to change the gearing while driving, but people who like experiences like that all know it's something more than a "hipster" indulgence. It's simply adding a level of comp…

Except JetBrains and Atom are disastrously slow which is the only real reason for preferring one text editor over another.
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