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Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

drupalconfessions.org

331–340 of 341 posts

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cute, but your glib dismissal of this viewpoint is partly why Trump won. Here's a little explanation of how people work: if a person holds a belief or fear, and one person demonizes then for it while another validates it, the person is going to be drawn to the validator. It's the same reason why gay pride has soared over the last few decades; as a gay person, would you rather listen to a person saying "you're perfect…

I generally agree with you but the seemingly unaware irony of people up in arms for accusations made against someone for what they did behind closed doors got the better of me. I appreciate that this is a nuanced situation and my personal feeling is the best thing to do is apply tolerance equally to everyone as long as you can (ie, tolerating peoples intolerant beliefs as a way to teach them more tolerance) and I can…

> All it takes is one loudmouth freshman SJW filmed on a campus to bias millions of people while thousands of trained people try to educate others about diversity issues get totally ignored.

Yeah, that's the truth, and it absolutely sucks. The conservative news coterie will give endless coverage of these incidents, priming millions to despise these people and their viewpoints. It only takes a small handful of people to ruin things for everybody, but this is also true of a few loudmouthed, asshole bigots on the right convincing the left that this is the majority view. This is why I preach the whole thing about listening, negotiation, etc. - it doesn't just apply to those of us on the left, there's absolutely a need for the right to listen thoughtfully as well.

I even feel this way about incidents that I am deeply, personally affected by. Climate change scares the shit out of me (look through my comment history if you need examples), so much so that I have struggled with depression and existential crises solely over this. Unless a hot war takes us out first, I'm firmly convinced that, if anything destroys humanity, this will be it. I'm afraid to have children, and terrified that the meaning I derive from life will be snatched away by stubbornness, greed, stupidity and laziness, which is heartbreaking. And yet, in spite of all that, when I watched a video of coal miners protesting environmental regulation that would take away jobs, I felt sorry for them, and angry at the climate change counter-protesters who were obnoxiously shoving signs in their face and shouting at them. Knowing that this will only make them hate liberals and environmentalists even more makes this sort of thing unacceptable. The best way to get what you want isn't shoving it down somebody else's throat unless you genuinely have the power to do so and enforce it permanently. In a two-party democracy, neither side has that power, necessitating consensus.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#332
post #326
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to find out what people who have been traditionally been the target of white supremacy groups would say to your reply. I would like to know if they would consider it acceptable, given the history and context of white supremacy and the violence toward minorities that it's led to. I wonder if they would be OK with, "well, Jean marches with a group calling for your extermination, and you know, throughout hi…

I like your assumption that I only have this opinion become I'm insulated from it. What if I were a homosexual who's had conservative Christian and conservative Muslim coworkers? It's not a hostile environment as long as each group treats the other with respect. To be clear: I think card carrying Nazis are abhorrent and would rather not interact with them. I also thinking banning them from an apolitical volunteer gro…

Well, yeah, I did make that assumption, and I will do so again the next time I talk to someone on the internet who defers to rules and tells hypothetical minorities to just deal with hypothetical white supremacists. Based on the conversations I have had in the past, both with people who endure this stuff and people who are insulated from it, it really sounds a lot more like you're insulated from that situation than someone who's had to deal with it. That whole response sounds lacking in empathy for the people who, hypothetically speaking, endure having coworkers wish for their expulsion/death.

Also, in the hypothetical, we were talking about a workplace, not a volunteer group. As for whether card-carrying nazis should be allowed to join apolitical volunteer groups, I think that each group can surely decide for themselves, and this is exactly where a code of conduct would apply, e.g. "nazis welcome" makes it clear up front that nazis aren't going to be uninvited for their views. Then everyone else can make the call whether they want to be involved with the Drupal-with-nazis fork or the Drupal-without-nazis fork.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#333
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Leftist beliefs aren't "half the population is my lesser". One could be very easily misled into thinking so with comments like "basket of deplorables". And it's not the only or the worst that leftists said about their opponents. One could argue about if it's exactly "half of the population" or merely 37%, but the idea of un-acceptance and plain old hate is definitely there. And occasionally spills out into violence…

> One could be very easily misled into thinking so with comments like "basket of deplorables". Even if you could, that was a comment from a center-right neoliberal about the supporters of a far right authoritarian, and didn't involve leftists in any capacity. > Communists believe bourgeoise are less human, at least if you look how they treated them whereever they got to win. The bourgeoisie are a narrow elite, partic…

> didn't involve leftists in any capacity.

Ah, I know, no true Scottsman!

> not half of the population.

Well, I don't know if any regime managed to kill literally half of the affected population, but certainly Stalin and Pol Pot could be seen as a viable contenders. Not forgetting the wonders of Cultural Revolution of course. If some movement hold the championship in dehumanising the opponents, it's certainly ones that created Gulag, killing fields, Great Leap Forward, and other similar wonders. All no true Scottsmen of course. And we should not forget one National Socialist Worker Party, which despite the name also definitely has nothing to do with socialism and such.

> And, in any case, Leninist vanguardism isn't representative of leftism

But of course. How did I know?

> the same way that Leninist vanguardism isn't representative of atheism.

Atheist ideas were not central to the bolsheviks' worldview - while totalitarian ideology they followed left no place for Christianity or any other old religion, they were perfectly fine creating new one, with their own saints, holidays, prayers, rituals and churches. They were against God only because The Party leaves no space for God on the top in their ideology. But leftist socialist ideology was the backbone of their worldview. Of course, now, that disastrous results of this ideology is in full view, modern leftists show wonders of creativity to prove that nobody who ever tried to build a society based on leftist principles was actually adherent of these principles. These effort are nothing but laughable, but some people do it again and again.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#334
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> right side of history. This phrase to some extent seems to have origins in dialectical materialism which is a marxist philosophy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_materialism I mention this because it seems at odds with your opposition to certain attitudes.

I appreciate the gesture, but I'm not familiar enough with dialectical materialism to gain much insight. Have I undermined my own point somehow? In reflection I can see how a phrase like "the right side of history" is somewhat unhelpful, since whichever side is "right" is completely subjective.

This philosophy is the background philosophy of marxism, and was essentially developed within this school. The gist is that that human progress (assumed to exist) is based on a materialist dialectic (action/response/synthesis) -

e.g. a sort of historical predeterminism that humankind is unstoppably destined for socialism once society 'evolved' to a certain level of productive capacity -

This view of progress is what leads to there being a 'right' and 'wrong' side of history, and as best I can tell the phrase it comes directly from marxists, and is rooted in in their philosophical view of society and progress, which doesn't mean one cant use that same sort of philosophy but leading to another in context, necessarily..

just a mention, since it seems like you might not like sounding marxist, not that that would in some cases be inherently a bad thing either.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#335
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Marvel Comics recently fired an illustrator for hiding Islamist, anti-Semitic and anti-Christian references in his art. His ideas were "normal" in his country - should that have been ignored? Reprimanded as long as he kept his politics out of his art? Indonesian here, I'm not sure to what you attribute it to a normal view by Indonesians?

Sorry, not "normal" but "common" as in "not rare". 100,000 people out protesting Ahok is a pretty firm sign that the artist is part of a large movement, even if his viewpoint is in the minority.

Yes, certainly not a normal nor common view, but as you said, a lot of people seems to share it.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#336
post #332
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your assumption that I only have this opinion become I'm insulated from it. What if I were a homosexual who's had conservative Christian and conservative Muslim coworkers? It's not a hostile environment as long as each group treats the other with respect. To be clear: I think card carrying Nazis are abhorrent and would rather not interact with them. I also thinking banning them from an apolitical volunteer gro…

Well, yeah, I did make that assumption, and I will do so again the next time I talk to someone on the internet who defers to rules and tells hypothetical minorities to just deal with hypothetical white supremacists. Based on the conversations I have had in the past, both with people who endure this stuff and people who are insulated from it, it really sounds a lot more like you're insulated from that situation than s…

Because a workplace is fundamentally different. In the US an employer can fire an employee for any reason, they also have no obligation do to fire any given employee for their views. It's kind of a moot point.

You know a lot of people who have worked with Nazis? If you do I feel bad for those people but it doesn't alter my views. Claiming your position is the moral high ground doesn't really lend any credence to your argument.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#337
post #332
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your assumption that I only have this opinion become I'm insulated from it. What if I were a homosexual who's had conservative Christian and conservative Muslim coworkers? It's not a hostile environment as long as each group treats the other with respect. To be clear: I think card carrying Nazis are abhorrent and would rather not interact with them. I also thinking banning them from an apolitical volunteer gro…

Well, yeah, I did make that assumption, and I will do so again the next time I talk to someone on the internet who defers to rules and tells hypothetical minorities to just deal with hypothetical white supremacists. Based on the conversations I have had in the past, both with people who endure this stuff and people who are insulated from it, it really sounds a lot more like you're insulated from that situation than s…

[deleted]

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you but the seemingly unaware irony of people up in arms for accusations made against someone for what they did behind closed doors got the better of me. I appreciate that this is a nuanced situation and my personal feeling is the best thing to do is apply tolerance equally to everyone as long as you can (ie, tolerating peoples intolerant beliefs as a way to teach them more tolerance) and I can…

> All it takes is one loudmouth freshman SJW filmed on a campus to bias millions of people while thousands of trained people try to educate others about diversity issues get totally ignored. Yeah, that's the truth, and it absolutely sucks. The conservative news coterie will give endless coverage of these incidents, priming millions to despise these people and their viewpoints. It only takes a small handful of people…

My feeling is that the only real way to solve the problems is a lot of actual direct communication, ideally 1 on 1 conversations but that means lots of people have to be involved.

I attended a protest that ended up being a big yelling match that I didn't want to be a part of and I was able to strike up a conversation with someone on the other side (not one of the rabid in your face protesters) and I found that pretty valuable. She thought Trump was chosen by God (and some other pretty wild stuff) but my guess is I had a bigger impact on her than the angry people that were on "my side" that she saw the rest of the day. I think if we have enough of that maybe we can change some minds but I don't expect anyone to simply come to an accurate realization on the state of affairs based on what they are exposed to in the media and on the internet.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#339
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has he actually said he did it because of religious views? I've come across people who believed that the state should not be involved in marriage. They viewed extending marriage to gay couples as just making a bad situation worse, by getting the state involved in even more relationships.

> Has he actually said he did it because of religious views? Yes, he has.

No, I haven't -- but keep on misrepresenting everything about that case, including the legal situation in California.

Do you have a religious reason for putting words in my mouth on hacker news? That would explain things about as well as your false assertion about me!

To save anyone interested in what I've written some site-specific searching, start here and follow the links I left in this comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13411986

Searching for coldpie and my name will return lots of tediously similar comments from him inveighing against me based on ill will and little else. I'll spare you all those search results :-|.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The board can ask you to leave at any time if you seem to be a liability... It's worth noting that many of the objections are about private information being misused. Eich was actually outed from a donor list that was leaked. There's a lot of parallels here if the concern is about "doxxing" activities. I also have a really hard time with the "but CEOs are different argument". So could being a Democrat in a red stat…

CEOs serve at will. Their job duties include being an emissary to the industry, and leading the company's reputation. I say what happened to Garfield was wrong, but agree that the Mozilla board made the right decision on Eich, who could not effectively carry out his general duties given the PR liability he became - not of his own making even. They didn't say he couldn't be a part of the org. as a lead software archit…

This is not complete (F in FAQ stands for Frequently), but it is official Mozilla material about me, and your comment contradicts it:

https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignat...

Are you just making stuff up for fun on HN, or do you have inside information ("They didn't say...; he just couldn't be allowed...") that no one but board members and a few other principals could know for certain?

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