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Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#331
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ouch, the comments over there are extremely negative. Humans are loss-sensitive. When Coca-Cola did blind taste tests for New Coke, it was overwhelmingly preferred. When they told people which was which, the preference for New Coke increased . Instead, when they removed Coca-Cola Classic from the shelves, people clamored for it back. People want the thing they cannot have. Scarcity creates desire. To some, this is…

> To some, this is a simple engineering trade-off. You can't have sandboxing, tab isolation, and responsiveness improvements with XUL add-ons in any kind of feasible or sustainable way. Certainly you can: it's software--anything is possible. The issue is that they don't want to make the effort. I think this is because the developers are no longer the people who built Firefox, and they want to reinvent Firefox and put…

> Certainly you can: it's software--anything is possible.

As the IRC channel topic on #jsapi on irc.mozilla.org says, "Nothing is hard to implement in isolation."

No, not everything is possible given finite resources. Some things are possible only if you sacrifice others. That might be actual things you need to remove, or the opportunity cost of adding more complexity to satisfy contradictory constraints and hence not improving something else.

As a concrete example here, if you have an extension model that relies on synchronous access to the page DOM _and_ the UI at the same time, and now you want to put those two things in different processes, you have a few options:

1) You can throw out the extension model. 2) You can write some complicated synchronous IPC proxies.

Make no mistake, option 2 _does_ mean trading off responsiveness: if the web renderer process you are trying to poke at is busy, then you will end up having to wait, and if you wait in a sync proxy that's a pause in the UI process. And that's what you're trying to avoid in the first place.

Note that people did in fact create the sync proxies, as a temporary measure, while working on providing better APIs to be used instead, to make the transition easier for extension authors. There are conflicting opinions on whether this is the right time to get rid of the sync proxy bits, but it does in fact need to happen at some point.

As for your opinion that "the developers are no longer the people who built Firefox", here's another data point. My first commit to Gecko (this is before there was a Firefox) was sometime in June 2001. I'm not trying to reinvent anything for the sake of reinvention. But I do think there are fundamental problems with both supporting the existing XUL addon ecosystem and making a number of long-delayed architectural changes that we don't feel like we can delay any longer. Again, we can argue about whether this is the right time for those changes. But I think it is. As a simple example, needing to support the existing XUL addon ecosystem would make the Stylo project (using the Servo style system in Gecko) harder. So if we're trying to get Stylo done by sometime this year (which we are), that gives you an end-of-life of ... well, right about the Firefox 57 release.

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#332

XUL has always been pretty terrible, IMO. But it has advantages over Chrome-style addons. Should Firefox support WebExtensions? I'd say absolutely yes. Should Mozilla remove XUL support? I'd say probably not. Or at least it should be optional, as there are clearly some people who want full control of their browser. I'm not one of those people, but I understand where they're coming from, and it would be like a food co…

The Electrolysis project took forever in large part because of the attempt to support XUL addons with it. It's hard to take seriously complaints that "Electrolysis took forever" given in the same breath as "oh, but you should keep XUL addons and just pay whatever complexity and development time penalties are involved in keeping them". Pick one or the other, please....

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I last used Firefox in December 2017, and there was something else weird that made me stop using it. I'm waiting for Mozilla servo to be released as a standalone browser that doesn't use more memory than chrome, and doesn't have trash font support. Right now it's worse than chrome for battery life and RAM usage on Windows.

I would be more concerned that you have figured out how to travel forward in time.

Oops

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to have been poorly communicated by the Mozilla team and it is a shame bevause e10s is a a real improvement

See, I don't think it was poorly communicated by the Mozilla team. I've been reading their volunteer emails and their public facing blogs, and seeing their commentary on e10s all along. What HAS been a problem is that they keep pushing it back because they don't want to upset the applecart of the legacy apps, and thus, e10s has basically become stalled by fear. And they didn't really do much to push back on that unti…

Again, this is not accurate.

1. Developers are lazy. This includes addon developers. Until there is a concrete time that their existing code will stop working, there's little incentive for them to bother rewriting their code.

2. For extensions which require non-existent WebExtensions APIs, there is nothing they can do but hope and pray that Mozilla will deign to make such APIs to enable them to rewrite their whole codebase to use them. If Mozilla declines, then the addon author can do nothing except watch their extension die.

It is not a matter of addon authors not believing Mozilla. The ball is in Mozilla's court to follow through and enable the extension authors.

Now Mozilla has set themselves an arbitrary deadline to disable XUL, using the excuse that e10s and other XUL-breaking stuff will arrive on that deadline--which is another arbitrary deadline that they set. Is there a term for this kind of internal self-buck-passing?

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#335
post #330
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this doesn't make sense. The set of clueless users who would install arbitrary malicious extensions and the set of clueless users who would download and run arbitrary executables is basically the same. Yet if they do the latter, any extention sandboxing is completely and utterly moot. It's the same issue as with mandatory extension signing; requiring signing for extensions while nothing stops someone from down…

I think the difference is that they want to try to prevent installers from installing unapproved extensions, which even many of the software that looks more legitimate often does. See https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Add-ons/AMO/Policy/Revie...

Yes, and the point of this is what, exactly?

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#336
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference is that they want to try to prevent installers from installing unapproved extensions, which even many of the software that looks more legitimate often does. See https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Add-ons/AMO/Policy/Revie...

Yes, and the point of this is what, exactly?

In particular, all the checked by default boxes to install things like the Ask Toolbar.
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