Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development • Hacker News Board

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#331

Post by bblough » Mon, Jan 02, 2017, 7:43 PM UTC

digi_owl wrote: post #287

mangecoeur wrote: post #190

As an ex-linux user and current mac user, I'm still frustrated by linux laptop hardware support. Ethernet ports that need to be re-plugged, suspend-to-disk not working... lots of glitches things that were already annoying 6-7 years ago but now are hard to justify compared with the polish you can expect from other systems. I could never go back from my macbook because I need everything to just work - no glitchy touchp…

The basic issue with all this is hardware manufacturers, and their fire and forget attitudes towards products. Thus they barely get their stuff working on the major commercial platforms, and all the rest have to either beg for specs so they can write their own (good luck) or reverse engineers (and risking bricking the hardware because of abusing standards for firmware flashing and whatsnot). And your primary complain…

> There is at least one documented case of a name brand motherboard offering up junk ACPI data unless Linux claimed to be Windows

I hadn't heard about this and was curious. Google turned up this:

https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=869249

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#332

Post by user5994461 » Mon, Jan 02, 2017, 7:45 PM UTC

digi_owl wrote: post #287

mangecoeur wrote: post #190

As an ex-linux user and current mac user, I'm still frustrated by linux laptop hardware support. Ethernet ports that need to be re-plugged, suspend-to-disk not working... lots of glitches things that were already annoying 6-7 years ago but now are hard to justify compared with the polish you can expect from other systems. I could never go back from my macbook because I need everything to just work - no glitchy touchp…

The basic issue with all this is hardware manufacturers, and their fire and forget attitudes towards products. Thus they barely get their stuff working on the major commercial platforms, and all the rest have to either beg for specs so they can write their own (good luck) or reverse engineers (and risking bricking the hardware because of abusing standards for firmware flashing and whatsnot). And your primary complain…

> Thus they barely get their stuff working on the major commercial platforms, and all the rest have to either beg for specs so they can write their own (good luck) or reverse engineers (and risking bricking the hardware because of abusing standards for firmware flashing and whatsnot).

Thus the shortest way to get a working system is to stop being an hipster and use one of the major commercial platforms.

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#333

Post by user5994461 » Mon, Jan 02, 2017, 7:59 PM UTC

yuhong wrote: post #48

endgame wrote: post #37

Lenovo are on my personal shitlist after superfish and abusing the windows platform binary table. When my current laptop dies (a thinkpad T440p that I'm reasonably happy with), I may have to suck up the performance hit and go to minifree for a machine I can actually trust.

Ah, "consumer" vs "business" computers. I wonder whether this distinction even makes sense. I think the biggest reason it still exists at this point is Best Buy and similar retail outlets, right?

The consumer space at Best Buy is focusing on whatever shit can be made and sold for Business require better built laptops than that, they've got money to pay and they want to have decent services and support. As a special characteristics, they also never bother to have a GPU (save money and power but missing for some consumer folks).

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#334

Post by atombender » Mon, Jan 02, 2017, 8:03 PM UTC

phaedrix wrote: post #285

mangecoeur wrote: post #190

As an ex-linux user and current mac user, I'm still frustrated by linux laptop hardware support. Ethernet ports that need to be re-plugged, suspend-to-disk not working... lots of glitches things that were already annoying 6-7 years ago but now are hard to justify compared with the polish you can expect from other systems. I could never go back from my macbook because I need everything to just work - no glitchy touchp…

I recently switched back to Linux (ThinkPad/Arch/Kernel4.8) after 5 years using a Macbook Pro (after using linux for 5 years previously). Linux hardware support has become much better without a doubt. However just in the last couple days I've had the following sporadic issues: * External usb keyboard/mouse simply wouldn't work (and doesn't show up in lsusb). Restart fixed. * If left overnight, occasionally won't wake…

But macOS is famous for having fast wake from sleep. It's always had this, years before Windows and Linux started catching up. It's always been near-instantaneous for me.

That said, it would seem that they have, and continue to have, issues with waking up with a new external monitor. Maybe you're being hit by this? Occasionally when I arrive at home or the office and plug my asleep-and-lid-closed MBP 2015 in, the screen will display garbage for a while, and hang for 10-30 seconds until it shows the unlock screen. Sometimes it doesn't recover at all.

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#335

Post by lobster_johnson » Mon, Jan 02, 2017, 8:09 PM UTC

ronjouch wrote: post #202

mangecoeur wrote: post #190

As an ex-linux user and current mac user, I'm still frustrated by linux laptop hardware support. Ethernet ports that need to be re-plugged, suspend-to-disk not working... lots of glitches things that were already annoying 6-7 years ago but now are hard to justify compared with the polish you can expect from other systems. I could never go back from my macbook because I need everything to just work - no glitchy touchp…

FUD. I do use the features you are mentioning, but encounter none of the issues. Thinkpad + Arch user. We Linux users need to realize we are an island, and it's our duty to: - Either Linux-QA-check on our own / as a community the hardware we're buying before we buy, because the constructor isn't doing it (it's doing it for the actively supported OS, Windows). - Or buy {System76 / Thinkpad}, and get {a lot of / some}…

Dismissing anecdotes about failure as FUD is not constructive. FUD is first and foremost a business tactic.

Sure, anecdotes aren't necessarily that useful. For every happy Mac user there seems to be an angry one who always had hardware problems, for example. But it's not exactly news that Linux has issues with hardware compatibility. It's the nature of the beast, really; Apple is able to target a very specific configuration, whereas Linux has to work on any old crappy Windows PC.

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#336

Post by gnufied » Mon, Jan 02, 2017, 8:23 PM UTC

vegardx wrote: post #151

It would be so much easier to love my Thinkpad T460s if it wasn't for the touchpad. Coming to Thinkpad and Linux after many years as a Mac-user this was almost a deal breaker for me. The palm detection in synaptic driver is laughable. People installing Linux on the new Macbook Pros are going to have a blast with that gigantic touchpad. And I don't even think it's just a driver problem, as the touchpad can register a…

Which distribution you are running? You want to post output of xev to xorg-libinput bug tracker. Generally they are very responsive about fixing touchpad for new devices. I don't know why - but it appears that each device needs to be tuned separately (like there is no Universal Palm detection that works for all laptops).

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#337

Post by tlikonen » Mon, Jan 02, 2017, 8:24 PM UTC

blakeyrat wrote: post #281

keithpeter wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that would be 'encrypt my home drive' on Linux, then you basically log out to protect files. Not sure though.

What I'm not understanding is why logging out or rebooting is required to keep a computer with full disk encryption secure. That's certainly not the case on competing OSes like Windows.

Usually in Linux the system is installed on an encrypted filesystem (cryptsetup, LUKS). Only kernel and so called initrd image (early boot stuff) is outside the encryption. The disk is opened at very early stage in boot when just about the kernel is loaded. Thus, the encryption is open whenever the operating system is running. Everything is of course still transparently encrypted on disk but the "lock" is open. One must shut down the computer to close the filesystem's encryption.

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#338

Post by keithpeter » Mon, Jan 02, 2017, 8:34 PM UTC

blakeyrat wrote: post #281

keithpeter wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that would be 'encrypt my home drive' on Linux, then you basically log out to protect files. Not sure though.

What I'm not understanding is why logging out or rebooting is required to keep a computer with full disk encryption secure. That's certainly not the case on competing OSes like Windows.

"Then click Install Now, and follow the rest of the instructions until you get to the “Who are you?” page. Make sure to choose a strong password — if someone steals your laptop while it’s suspended, this password is all that comes between the attacker and your data. And make sure that “Require my password to log in” is checked, and that “Log in automatically” is not checked. There is no reason to check “Encrypt my home folder” here, because you’re already encrypting your entire disk."

Above quote is from the section titled 'How to encrypt your disk in Linux' on the page at

https://theintercept.com/2015/04/27/encrypting-laptop-like-m...

I'm just a bit confused about how Windows can remove keys without messing up file handles &c when suspending to RAM.

The level of security I have now is adequate to my purpose but certainly something for others to take into consideration. Thanks for posting.

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#339

Post by ronjouch » Mon, Jan 02, 2017, 8:34 PM UTC

lobster_johnson wrote: post #335

ronjouch wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FUD. I do use the features you are mentioning, but encounter none of the issues. Thinkpad + Arch user. We Linux users need to realize we are an island, and it's our duty to: - Either Linux-QA-check on our own / as a community the hardware we're buying before we buy, because the constructor isn't doing it (it's doing it for the actively supported OS, Windows). - Or buy {System76 / Thinkpad}, and get {a lot of / some}…

Dismissing anecdotes about failure as FUD is not constructive. FUD is first and foremost a business tactic. Sure, anecdotes aren't necessarily that useful. For every happy Mac user there seems to be an angry one who always had hardware problems, for example. But it's not exactly news that Linux has issues with hardware compatibility. It's the nature of the beast, really; Apple is able to target a very specific config…

> "Dismissing anecdotes about failure as FUD is not constructive. FUD is first and foremost a business tactic."

Hm, reading {your, UnoriginalGuy, mwfunk} comments, I realize "FUD" is a loaded term. I was using it literally, missing the strong stuff associated with it. Point taken, thanks.

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#340

Post by Hasknewbie » Mon, Jan 02, 2017, 8:47 PM UTC

Havoc wrote: post #158

Hasknewbie wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a X260. Don't. The keyboard is a smooth smudgefest with so-so tactile feedback (this particular point will depend on which manufacturer supplied the keyboard that ends up in your unit). The keys and trackpoint leave marks on the display when it is closed. The display bezel leaves marks on the palmrest. This is really poor engineering on basic stuff. When I pick up the laptop by the lower left corner (hey, it's…

Weird - we've got an office full of x240s & x260s and they all seem fine from what I can tell. Never had a hardware related issue in ~2 years of use. Well except that one bluescreen a couple months back - that could be hw I guess. The screen res pisses me off though. :/

I am not saying that you cannot get a decent X260, but notice how now in every Thinkpad thread there is a significant number of "me / my team had a number of thinkpads, we've had to go through N replacements during the last year", whereas a few years ago they were the poster boy for reliability. Thinkpads now have the engineering/manufacturing tolerance of a low to mid range consumer laptop, even though they are supposed to be professional equipment. This is unconscionable.

This is why I don't recommend something like the X260. You can't buy a premium laptop and "just hope" it will have none of the reported defects. We pay a premium with an expectation for reliability, not for a QA lottery.

Conversely it seems most complaints are for the X2xx and T4xx series, which is why I believe it has to do with manufacturing tolerance: maybe on 15" it's just good enough to not have any significant defect, and they kept the same M.O. for the more compact models, and there problems did pop up.

(The screen resolution has in fact been getting better for the latest two generations, but here again it is only to catch up to the competition. Remember when you could get a 15in Thinkpad with an IPS 2048x1536 display, long before the "retina" buzzword came to life? That was before Lenovo took over.)