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Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

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Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#331

Post by quesera »

tptacek wrote: post #308
hkt wrote: post #91

Just another example of the extreme moral ambiguity of the West. We regularly ignore our own standards around giving people a fair trial when it suits the executive of the day or when some stupid condition applies ("race" in this case, geography and citizenship for eg Guantanamo bay). Not to mention "strategic" alliances with dictators down the years that have usually proven to be murderous. It is sad to think that t…

I find your sentiment somewhat tossed-off, implying as it does that we "regularly ignore" things like Japanese-American internment camps, when in fact we teach them to elementary school children as national disgraces we hope never to repeat.

That is not a component of all curricula in the country. And the idea of a "registry" is a modern day touchy thing.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#332

Post by dragonwriter »

tptacek wrote: post #308
hkt wrote: post #91

Just another example of the extreme moral ambiguity of the West. We regularly ignore our own standards around giving people a fair trial when it suits the executive of the day or when some stupid condition applies ("race" in this case, geography and citizenship for eg Guantanamo bay). Not to mention "strategic" alliances with dictators down the years that have usually proven to be murderous. It is sad to think that t…

I find your sentiment somewhat tossed-off, implying as it does that we "regularly ignore" things like Japanese-American internment camps, when in fact we teach them to elementary school children as national disgraces we hope never to repeat.

> when in fact we teach them to elementary school children as national disgraces we hope never to repeat

When it's cited as a precedent to justify a policy proposal, it's pretty clear that lesson isn't being taught effectively, if it's being taught.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#333

Post by kofejnik »

hkt wrote: post #91

Just another example of the extreme moral ambiguity of the West. We regularly ignore our own standards around giving people a fair trial when it suits the executive of the day or when some stupid condition applies ("race" in this case, geography and citizenship for eg Guantanamo bay). Not to mention "strategic" alliances with dictators down the years that have usually proven to be murderous. It is sad to think that t…

As someone born in USSR, I have to really disagree. What happened to Japanese-Americans absolutely sucked, but in no way can be compared to how people were treated in USSR, where millions died in camps and on their way to camps.

Millions of Ukrainians (~10%) died in the artificial famine of 1933, just to enforce compliance with the reforms. Chechens were interned in 1944, and estimated 25-30% of them (or 150-200 thousand people) died in exile. This list goes on and on in USSR alone, who were supposedly good guys and allies.

To all those millions of people, being locked on a farm with dull food and nothing to do and shortages of hot water, would be a nice vacation.

Takes special kind of mental gymnastics to see these cases as equivalent.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#334

Post by sushid »

kmeade wrote: post #313
sushid wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting because we learn to associate positive policies and refer to them as FDR's New Deal (bills passed by Congress/signed by FDR), JFK's Peace Corp, Nixon's EPA, etc. It's true that these policies are not made by one individual. But when we're crediting the presidents who merely signed bills passed by the Congress, should we not at least be give the same weight when they sign an executive order? And I'm…

Thank-you for your replies and patience with me. (really) "we learn to associate..." is a bit of a sad phrase. What we have done is experience a great deal of sloppy or propagandized reporting. FDR's New Deal is a bit of an exception because, in addition to a set of programs, I believe it was purposely coined as a campaign slogan -- as was LBJ's New Society. When the verbiage was specifically created by someone in as…

Thanks for taking your time as well. :)

To be honest, I do understand what you mean. It was a different time (and a time that's difficult for younger people like me to fathom) back then. The US was in a turning point of the century and fear, uncertainty, and doubt affected the decision that led to the internment of Japanese Americans.

I apologize if my criticism is coming off as smug or graceless. I certainly don't intend to, but I do dislike how we in the US tend to gloss over those we've wronged in the past because "times were different." It's fair to say they had their reasons for making those decisions in the past, but also fair to criticize the practice.

As for smearing the legacy of FDR, that is not my goal either. He was clearly an effective president and is consistently ranked as being one of the best US presidents of all time. But all too often we try and frame someone as being categorically good or bad, rather than being somewhere in the middle, which is what most people are.

Trust me, I dislike those who snidely point out MLK's infidelity, Jefferson and Sally Hemings, etc. But we should openly point out these facts and let them be judged as a whole, as a positive influence in US history DESPITE their misgivings, not because they technically didn't have any.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#335

Post by gaius »

turar wrote: post #297
gaius wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but a situation in which every individual picks and chooses the laws they agree with doesn't scale.

I wonder what America would have been like if slavery abolitionists, women's suffrage leaders, and Civil Rights leaders took your advice.

All of those people campaigned for a change in the law, so my point stands.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#336

Post by FrancoDiaz »

grzm wrote: post #269
FrancoDiaz wrote: post #213

The politics ban is lifted, and as usual, a complete degradation into the usual rhetoric. People write a comment and think somebody's mind will be changed. Nope, not gonna happen. Just look at comments and replies. It's just delusional thinking to think that HN is somehow above the fray when it comes to this stuff.

I share your frustration with the inflammatory discussion we can sometimes see here at HN. If this is something you care about, there are things you can do. Participate in discussions constructively and charitably. You're right about writing a comment and expecting someone's mind is going to be changed. I try to keep in mind that it's not necessarily about "changing people's minds", it's at least partly about underst…

Participate in discussions constructively and charitably

The problem is that invariably the amount of destruction and uncharitable discussion outweighs the constructive and charitable discussion in these threads.

It's always a net loss on these types of threads.

These types of threads always put a stain on the reputation of HN as a place of intelligent conversation. There's some really immoral and despicable lines of thought in this thread.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#337

Post by turar »

gaius wrote: post #335
turar wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what America would have been like if slavery abolitionists, women's suffrage leaders, and Civil Rights leaders took your advice.

All of those people campaigned for a change in the law, so my point stands.

All those people participated in breaking the laws they saw as unjust. From Underground Railroad in the 19th century to sitting in white-only sections in the 20th. People hiding Jews from Nazis were actively breaking the law. The founders of the United States broke the British law. Edward Snowden broke the law. Nelson Mandela broke the law. Mahatma Ghandi broke the law. The list goes on and on.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#338

Post by mikeash »

laumars wrote: post #330
mikeash wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with starting wars if it stops the suffering of large numbers of civilians. As it stands, 15-20 million Chinese were killed by the Japanese in that war. How many would have died if the US had not gotten involved?

I understand the point you're making but you are quoting numbers of suffering due to war which defeats the purpose of arguing the suffering saved by going to war. Plus the American involvement wasn't out of humanitarian reasons either. They only joined the war after getting attacked by Japan themselves. Which, which since I support retaliatory action if another party has already initiated war, would mean the US follo…

How does quoting the suffering of the Chinese at the hands of the Japanese defeat the purpose of arguing the suffering saved by the Americans going to war with the Japanese?

Yes, war causes suffering. It can also prevent suffering. This would only be contradictory if I were for some reason arguing that all war is good, which I most certainly am not.

I would argue that the US did join the war partly out of humanitarian reasons, since the war was precipitated by economic sanctions that were enacted due to Japan's actions in China. But ultimately my argument has nothing to do with their reasons.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#339

Post by mikeash »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #283
chrishacken wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To date, the U.S. has spent more than $60 billion in reconstruction grants to help Iraq get back on its feet after the country was broken by more than two decades of war, sanctions and dictatorship. That works out to about $15 million a day. And yet Iraq's government is rife with corruption and infighting." http://www.cbsnews.com/news/much-of-60b-from-us-to-rebuild-i...

I didn't say we didn't spend money. But if you look at what we did to Germany and Japan, the extent of the control of our occupation, rebuilding their government from the ground up for most of a decade, there's no comparison with Iraq. We wanted to have few people there, and not for long. And it didn't work.

I think a big factor in the relative ease of turning Germany and Japan to our side was killing millions of them first, and especially the men of fighting age. Nothing quite says "you should probably not rebel against our occupation" like slaughtering the people who would be fighting, and wrecking entire cities in the process.

Of course, such techniques would have been a tough sell in 2003. (And rightfully so.)

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#340

Post by mikeash »

hkt wrote: post #327
mikeash wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They clearly have to some extent. That's why I mentioned the National Park Service trail. More would be better, for sure, but we don't deny it, nor prosecute people who say it happened.

Calling it a genocide is an important acknowledgement in its own right.

That's an argument that the US could handle it better. My argument is simply that some countries handle it qualitatively better than others, and in particular that the US acknowledges and learns from the Trail of Tears in ways that Turkey does not with the Armenian Genocide. These two arguments are compatible.
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