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No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

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Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#331

Post by tomp »

Malician wrote: post #141
SiVal wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace your first word with "Reward" and re-read it. My own observation is that both of these claims are partly true but that there is some effect that remains even when they think they are not observed. Parents often see what kids think they don't, so I have empirical evidence of this (as all parents do).

I don't buy the idea that punishment and reward are just different sides of the same coin. Reward works well for building a healthy rapport and relationship. I don't think punishment is entirely ineffective, but if it isn't rare and judicious it may well end up causing more harm than help. The problem is that the response to punishment is visible immediately while the downsides may only appear many years later.

Rewarding someone when they do what you want is just as sleazy and manipulative as punishing them when they do what you don't want. It might be the fact that a child doesn't realize that, but an adult undoubtedly (eventually) would, and be just as resentful.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#332

Post by ryanmarsh »

Mz wrote: post #68
SerLava wrote: post #5

> Let’s say you have an adolescent daughter and she says to you, “Mom, you are such a bitch. What have you ever done for me? You only think of yourself.” > The teen may be at the dinner table and just being quiet and not saying negative things. Well, when you're starting out, one of the positive-opposites can sometimes be reinforcing the non-occurrence of the behavior. And you just say, “Marion, it's nice having dinn…

FWIW, as a former full time mom with two late twenties adult kids, my sons tell me that me not being a bitch is why they never went through the asshole rebellious teen stage. There was nothing to rebel against. They had no reason to be angry at me. (Though, to be fair, my younger son started to be a pain in the ass teen and then I explained the somatopsychic effects of puberty to him one day in front of his brother a…

I think adults often forget how much awe they had as kids for the amazing adults in their lives.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#333

Post by Broken_Hippo »

riffraff wrote: post #280

I don't understand: how do you reinforce behaviour that is the default? Do you tell your kids every minute "I appreciate you didn't break the window/throw the glass on the floor/pour milk on the carpet/put play-doh in the washing machine"? I get that it works for clearly delimited things like "put on your clothes properly" or "don't make a mess during dinner" but that doesn't cover 90% of the time that I need to tell…

Some behaviors - as with throwing toys and pouring out milk - are normal and will pass. In the meantime, you can do things such as notice when milk is still in the cup and point out, with a silly voice, that you are pouring the milk into the cup because milk likes to be inside of things. Just occasionally, not constantly. Then just remind her when it gets on the floor, and tell her the negative consequences (as is age appropriate). You can have her play with play-doh in a safer space and with more oversight - showing her how to be neat about it while you two play.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#334

Post by arghIdontwantto »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

I can second this. And if I give a 3rd choice, he wants a 4th. I've tried many of the 'common' advices but they don't really seem to work that well with mine. With mine seems a bit of 'indifference' works wonders.

'We are going out now', 'no, I don't want to, scream, etc, etc', 'Ok, stay there, when you are ready to talk to me and go out, I'll start talking to you again, until then, I'll be in the kitchen/bedroom/whatever'. This usually gives him 5 minutes to think a bit, then comes back, apoligises and we go on our way. I've tried pretty much everything before this, and seems it was the only thing that works with mine.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#335

Post by arghIdontwantto »

bbcbasic wrote: post #314
nhebb wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, after having three kids with widely different temperaments, I can only offer two pieces of advice to other dads: - You're going to have to change diapers anyway, so you might as well get good at it. I was a one-man Formula 1 pit crew of diaper changing. AMA. - Invest in a vasectomy.

AMA: what about the super runny pound of goop poo that leaks through both nappies.

Just deal with it. It's going to happen, just notice as quickly as possible and then go and clean the baby (washing, not wipes, just hold him in one arm, use the shower head and in a minute its all clean)

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#336

Post by hueving »

geon wrote: post #240
maxxxxx wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were not very precise with your numbers. You say "99%", "9 out of 10" and "very rare". To a lot of people these mean "negligibly small". With dog training, child rearing and most everything else in life you increase your chances for success by a lot if you follow certain rules. But let's not look down at the people who fail. It may be their fault or it may not be their fault.

How are 99 % or 9/10 not precise numbers? And "very rare" was a comment on "99 %", not a quantity on its own. HN is the one place where I expect readers to interpret numbers literally.

Are 9/10 and 99% the same number to you?

Would you describe a random number generator outputting 5 when picking between 1 and 10 as "very rare"?

1/10 != 1/100 != "very rare"

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#337

Post by philh »

Analemma_ wrote: post #178
tw04 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why that would humble her. If she trained dogs, then she already knew 99% of the dogs out there with behavioral issues are a direct result of the owner. There are VERY rare circumstances where it's just a genetic defect (for lack of better term) in the dog, and it just has insurmountable issues. After fostering/owning roughly 75 dogs in my life, I can say 9 times out of 10 that consistency and discipline…

You are exhibiting the Just World fallacy. It makes you uncomfortable to believe that sometimes the universe is random and chaotic, and that sometimes there are dogs and children whose bad behavior really isn't the fault of their handlers, so you shield yourself with a dogmatic (no pun intended) belief that it's always someone's fault, even when the empirical evidence (like a crummy Chihuahua owned by a professional…

> You are exhibiting the Just World fallacy. It makes you uncomfortable to believe... so you shield yourself...

This is bulverism. You haven't presented evidence that tw04 is wrong. You've just assumed they're wrong, and presented a condescending explanation for why.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulverism

And as they said, you're not actually disagreeing with them.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#338

Post by mverwijs »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

Any question ending with '..., okay' is asking for permission.

I (as a parent of 2 very easy kids) always avoid those type of permission-asking questions when presenting choice. Instead I offer, not ask: "You can wear the green or the red. What do you choose?"

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#339

Post by Ntrails »

flukus wrote: post #259
sumedh wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> leather belt fixed him within a year Lot of Indian parents (including mine) follow this approach.

It was very common everywhere until about 10-20 years ago. My mum even keeps her collection of broken wooden spoons.

I am very interested in the progression of societal intervention in parenting. I, like many others I'm sure, was beaten occasionally as a child. It was not done maliciously or for pleasure, but as a learning aid. Strangely, I learnt pretty quick.

I get that people don't approve these days, and I know it's almost impossible to draw a legal line on when spanking is discipline and when it's abuse. I'm not sold that I agree on the party line that it's an inherently bad thing though. Just a tool that can be misused. I doubt I'll be having kids though - so it's a problem I won't need to deal with.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#340

Post by Tomte »

tptacek wrote: post #162
jcrawfordor wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this fairly nonstandard usage rule is significant enough to reply to someone to correct them on it, shouldn't it be listed in the guidelines? The parent's usage is very common, so it seems a bit harsh for a mod to call them out on it, even if fairly politely, when they are not clearly in violation of anything they have been told.

HN is a "common law" community. Not everything is written down in a single place; the rules evolve as they're refined and reinterpreted by the mods. I wonder what the best example of a "civil law" community on the Internet would be --- a message board where everything you weren't supposed to do was spelled out completely.

Civil law doesn't mean that everything is spelled out in detail. Ambiguous and vague characterisations in legal definitions are simply necessary to make a legal system work.

I think the real difference is that in common law "some other judges ruled this way a decade ago" is persuasive, while under civil law it doesn't really hold much weight.

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