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On asking job candidates to code

philcalcado.com

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Re: On asking job candidates to code

#331

Post by tostitos1979 »

eternalban wrote: post #306
Tunabrain wrote: post #9

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

> I don't really understand this ideal. It seems pretty simple to me, if you consider the entire protocol as what it is: a negotiation, with one side asserting their dominant position. Please excuse me hn for beating this horse to death, but for God's sake, Programmers of the World, Organize .

I for one have "walked out" of any interview that has asked me to do a take home assignment. Usually, the request for the take-home comes early enough. This shows me that the engineering team is too busy with work to even give time for a 30 minute shared text editor code interview. If we all refuse to do it, this crap will stop.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#332

Post by JoeAltmaier »

tostitos1979 wrote: post #331
eternalban wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't really understand this ideal. It seems pretty simple to me, if you consider the entire protocol as what it is: a negotiation, with one side asserting their dominant position. Please excuse me hn for beating this horse to death, but for God's sake, Programmers of the World, Organize .

I for one have "walked out" of any interview that has asked me to do a take home assignment. Usually, the request for the take-home comes early enough. This shows me that the engineering team is too busy with work to even give time for a 30 minute shared text editor code interview. If we all refuse to do it, this crap will stop.

I balked at a take-home. They agreed it was a nuisance, instead hired me for a week to work with their team as a contractor! At my rack rate. That was a great experience, didn't hit me in the pocketbook, and convinced the team we could work productively together.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#333

Post by ctdonath »

rbritton wrote: post #316
philbarr wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got laid off recently and was applying for all the jobs I could find. So I had to do a bunch of these programming projects. I don't mind them per-se, but it takes so long to do each one and you have to be ultra-clean with each one. I don't think companies take into account that you might not have that much free time. It's particularly stressful when you don't get through. On pair programming tasks, I had a pair pro…

I'm actually in the hiring process at a place currently, and their process is reasonable for someone in my position coming from freelance: 1. Phone screen amounting to about 45 minutes. 2. Skype interview with small code samples between two interviewers at 45 minutes each. 3. 2-week paid trial doing real work. I had #2 yesterday and am currently waiting to hear back from them about moving onward.

It's #3 that makes all the difference: a task that means something, and makes it worth one's while.

Duolingo wanted a functioning nontrivial (albeit sparse) app, expected to take 10 hours to write. I found it amusing on its own, but interviewed & got multiple offers elsewhere in less time.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#334

Post by Chris2048 »

tomjen3 wrote: post #291
verelo wrote: post #270

A lot of people here seem to suggest it is unreasonable to ask someone to do some coding in an interview given that you've shown a series of projects and provided references. Unfortunately I've been through a variety of interviews where I feel the conditions which I was asked to code were unreasonable (whiteboard, overly complex problems while under pressure, using a language I was not comfortable with or just academ…

Imagine there are twenty candidates who can't code at all, so they apply everywhere. There are also twenty candidates who can code, but are presently unemployed because they all worked for SpoonRacket. Now the entire lot apply for jobs at your company, and you hire two of those who can code. Within 3 months the rest of the good ones have found jobs, but 30 others have temporarily been unemployed and none of the bad o…

I'm not sure I understand,

> but 30 others have temporarily been unemployed and none of the bad ones have been unemployed

Is this 30 new programmers plus 20 of the original candidates who can't code? Should that be "none of the bad ones have been employed"?

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#335

Post by tomjen3 »

dpeck wrote: post #90

I just instituted a coding assignment with our hiring (exceptions made for those with extensive github/similar open source contributions), and so far only have had three candidates do it, but I'm a fan. Mine is crafted so a really competent developer could get it done in 30 minutes, and intermediate 2 hours and a junior probably not finish. I tell them to send what they have in after two hours that I'm as interested…

Are your company especially desirable? Because if not, why should I invest 10-20 hours across ten companies to get one job? Sure I may get lucky and get hired the first place, but thats not very likely, no matter how good I am.

To me requiring me to waste that much time indicate the company being a diva, something I wouldn't want in my employer.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#337

Post by tomjen3 »

Chris2048 wrote: post #334
tomjen3 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine there are twenty candidates who can't code at all, so they apply everywhere. There are also twenty candidates who can code, but are presently unemployed because they all worked for SpoonRacket. Now the entire lot apply for jobs at your company, and you hire two of those who can code. Within 3 months the rest of the good ones have found jobs, but 30 others have temporarily been unemployed and none of the bad o…

I'm not sure I understand, > but 30 others have temporarily been unemployed and none of the bad ones have been unemployed Is this 30 new programmers plus 20 of the original candidates who can't code? Should that be "none of the bad ones have been employed"?

Yes, sorry.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#338

Post by Lawtonfogle »

rbritton wrote: post #316
philbarr wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got laid off recently and was applying for all the jobs I could find. So I had to do a bunch of these programming projects. I don't mind them per-se, but it takes so long to do each one and you have to be ultra-clean with each one. I don't think companies take into account that you might not have that much free time. It's particularly stressful when you don't get through. On pair programming tasks, I had a pair pro…

I'm actually in the hiring process at a place currently, and their process is reasonable for someone in my position coming from freelance: 1. Phone screen amounting to about 45 minutes. 2. Skype interview with small code samples between two interviewers at 45 minutes each. 3. 2-week paid trial doing real work. I had #2 yesterday and am currently waiting to hear back from them about moving onward.

>3. 2-week paid trial doing real work.

That could work for those without a job, but if I'm securely in a job, if I'm going to be switching to a 2 week contract, there needs to be a significant bonus attached.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#339

Post by ironchef »

busterarm wrote: post #91
philbarr wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got laid off recently and was applying for all the jobs I could find. So I had to do a bunch of these programming projects. I don't mind them per-se, but it takes so long to do each one and you have to be ultra-clean with each one. I don't think companies take into account that you might not have that much free time. It's particularly stressful when you don't get through. On pair programming tasks, I had a pair pro…

Wholehearted agreement here. The only purpose of these challenges is to start a conversation about code. Why not just bypass the bullshit challenges and just _have a conversation about code_? My best job experiences are exactly as you describe. The worst have been companies that sought me out (I didn't apply) and then wasted my time during the phone screen (having background conversations with other people in the roo…

"Why not just bypass the bullshit challenges and just _have a conversation about code_?" Because talking and doing can be different? _Do_ they actually write test cases? Do they write documentation? Do they make output machine parseable? etc. I want to see what work product looks like even if the work product is simple. (which is also why the homework I assign is nothing ridiculous like 8 hours nor do I timebox it)

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#340

Post by Lawtonfogle »

jasode wrote: post #85
patio11 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Speaking in personal capacity here.) There exists a continuum of hiring practices which place more or less burden upon candidates. I would encourage HNers with input into their company hiring practices to choose less burdensome approaches over more burdensome approaches, particularly when less burdensome approaches also yield additional signal about ability. A thing you can expect to be asked in 2016: you can expect…

>For some candidates, this will involve more than 16 hours on planes, a (minimally) overnight stay in a business hotel, and six solid hours of interviews in the course of an 8~10 hour day. This requires minimally 2~3 days of these candidates' lives. ... To put it mildly: it is not guaranteed that if you're flown out you will get an offer. ..., and you replace the onsite with even an excessively long project, that's a…

>Sure, they also interview older middle-aged candidates but the benchmark tolerance for hoop-jumping is set by the 22-year olds therefore you won't get sympathy from employers about disrupting your life to stay in the running.

So basically they find a legal way to discriminate against older candidates?

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