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State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

theguardian.com

331–340 of 497 posts

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#331
post #209

I am French and have friends and family in Paris, fortunately they are all safe. I am however in shock and can't really process much except for shedding tears. I feel the strong need to point out that in these difficult times in Europe and the world, we CANNOT allow right-wing political extremism to use them to gather power. THIS IS NOT ABOUT MUSLIMS, IMMIGRANTS OR WHATNOT. THIS IS ABOUT CRAZY PEOPLE.

Furthermore, the terrorists want to create division between Muslim and non-Muslim / west and middle east. They know what our knee-jerk reactions will be and are hoping we will follow through on them.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#332
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you marginalize people, mistrust them, do not make an effort to integrate them, and make them feel like the only place where they are welcome is segregated communities, don't be surprised when they radicalize. This has happened all throughout history, and will continue without changes. @deanCommie Please, stop with the excuses , nobody marginalized anybody. The terrorists are not victims , the islamists are not…

I'm not excusing the terrorists. I'm trying to keep in check the people who are commenting on this and just saying "well yeah, this is what happens when you have 10% muslims in your country". I'm not defending the terrorists. I'm defending people like your family who will be lumped in with them in the next couple of weeks as people blame all of this on immigration and islam, like they do every time. The fact is, we a…

> I'm not excusing the terrorists. I'm trying to keep in check the people who are commenting on this and just saying "well yeah, this is what happens when you have 10% muslims in your country".

You're not trying to keep people in check, you are as ignorant as the people saying racist comments with your stupid pomo explanations.

> I'm not defending the terrorists. I'm defending people like your family who will be lumped in with them in the next couple of weeks as people blame all of this on immigration and islam, like they do every time.

I won't be lumped in with anybody because most of the french can tell the difference and I don't need anyone defending me, thank you, i'm capable of defending myself. You're talking about a problem you know nothing about, with a specific school of thinking that is stupid at first place. You want to talk about a population that is really marginalized in France? talk about the Roma, I didn't see anyone of them killing 50+ people because of it. and they have it much , much worse than any arab or black in France.

France is not an apartheid where blacks, arabs and white people are separated and often ,those who claim being victim of society are the one with an intolerant and bigoted mindset. People like you give the crazies ammo to fuel their hatred toward a country that feed them , treat them , give them an education for free and a whole lot of percs. And again ,don't like it ? move , Europe is huge and go see if the grass is greener elsewhere.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible even with Schengen. A clause in the Schengen convention (in article 2.2) authorizes states to reinstate border checks in exceptional circumstances. > Where there is a serious threat to public policy or internal security, these countries may exceptionally reintroduce border controls at its internal borders for a period of no more than 30 days (possible to prolong under conditions established by the code)…

No, I get that it's legal. But there's no... border. In the map link I posted, you wouldn't be able to tell half of the satellite view was Belgium without Google telling you that's the case. How do you close that down, especially in the middle of the night? The US can't even do it in places with a wall.

Every one of those roads would be posted in the past, I very much suspect they'll do the same thing now at least for a while. I've driven a lot in that region and there are a few hundred crossings in all, it's not at all like the Canadian-US border or something like that, closing it off is entirely possible.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crazy people that happen to be muslim extremists.

Yes, but crazy people exist in all walks of life. Fortunately most of those walks of life do not co-incide with organizations trying to point those crazy people against their fellow men. It's unfortunate that in some circles this does happen and clearly there is a problem but - and for a die hard atheist this is a tough one - the Muslim religion per-se is not the problem here, if it were you'd know about it because t…

I have no problem with muslims (or not more than with christians for instance). I'm just pointing that these terrorists are not simply crazy people. They are muslim extremists. They kill for a reason, they've been brainwashed by guys that have a very specific agenda.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#336
post #7

Next thing you know, a new and even more totally total mass surveillance law is passed. (Obviously, attacks will continue to happen from time to time.)

This probably won't be a popular opinion on Hacker News, but it is it possible to compromise with a limited amount of mass surveillance? I believe it was LA that had a plane fly above the city and record 24/7. It was just enough resolution to make out cars and people, but not identify anyone. Less invasive than security cameras in that sense. And I don't think it was live. It was just something the police could go ba…

Why? This sort of thing is flashy but not a real danger you need to be concerned about (think shark attack not car crash), so even if you take the premise that mass surveillance could stop it (dubious), it's probably not worth paying much for, certainly not any abridgements of our rights.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea what your point is. If I lost a loved one to a vending machine accident, I might develop a really irrational fear of vending machines. It doesn't mean vending machines are a threat to our society. I know someone who is deadly afraid of putting shoes on tables. Because her friend did that before dying in a traffic accident.

Why are you so convinced that terrorism is not a threat to society? Lots of Romans probably thought the Huns were a laughable foe as well.

Exactly. Look at what the Shining Path did in Peru.

Blow up enough people often enough and fear and panic will become pervasive. People stop opening their shops, investments stop coming.

Terror is a pretty effective way to overthrow a gov't.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because people let it. There is little danger form actual terrorism, but there is massive danger from people's reactions to terrorism.

I think you underestimate the impact this type of terrorism has. The real massive danger is constantly trying to downplay it. The simple fact is, when facing an irrational enemy the last thing you can do is try to shift the blame to those who react.

The enemy is not irrational. The moment you understand that, you'll understand why fear is not the answer.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#339
post #9

A disaster. Obviously don't know yet who is responsible, but I don't understand why France is being targeted in this way. They are hardly terrorist enemy number one.

> They are hardly terrorist enemy number one.

You might think that only because it doesn't resonate in the English-speaking press, but that's far from true. In reality, France is historically involved in any goings-on in Northern Africa, and is a fundamental partner to US and UK in Middle East policies. They were the main proponents for "blowing up" Lybia, while UK and Italy had built bridges with the regime and were preparing for an eventual transition. They started military operations in Syria only a few months ago, but mostly because they have troops continuously engaged in various African countries and have to keep an eye on their limited resources.

Across radicalised groups all over Africa, ME and Asia, France is still seen as an old-school, violent colonial power with an anti-muslim bent. You could be surprised if Spain or (to a lesser degree) Italy were targeted, but France easily makes the "Top 5 Targets List" of most violent nutjobs in that part of the world.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#340
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of terrorism is to provoke a reaction. To quote the German RAF terrorist Ulrike Meinhof on the subject: "A war 6 against 60 million can not be won. All we [the terrorist] can do, is to tear down the mask of democracy and expose the fascist face of the state." So what is damaging is not the terror itself, what damages the social fabric is the overreaction. Terrorists should just be tried like other criminals…

> Terrorists should just be tried like other criminals, not given the reaction they want. Exactly, and very important, not given the platform they want, the media are very much a part of this as well.

Yup - when I expressed similar sentiments about the killing of Jihadi John, somebody sarcastically said I was trying to bring about world peace (I wouldn't mind).

We have to fight for enlightenment values, and need to lead by example - we can't make martyrs out of people.

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