331–340 of 437 posts
One question. Why is it important to make, quote: "computer science more attractive to women..."? I mean I get that the sex discrimination stuff and treatment of women we read here on hacker news is bad and of course it would help if there were more women in tech. But other than that, if you think of the women in general and not some "diversity would be good" (which it probably would be), why the worry? Why aren't we…
Ok so I'm a girl who codes/programs and I'm my take on the issues she raised: Stereotypes about STEM fields putting girls off I can only talk about my own experience but I saw very few negative stereotypes about STEM fields growing up. Definitely not enough to put off girls. However, while I did start coding at a young age, I didn't apply my skill to a work/business purpose until my twenties. Why? I think this issue…
as evidenced by this doco on the "Gender Equality" paradox https://vimeo.com/19707588
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So—first, empathy, I don't get video games at all. Second—this strikes me as fairly standard cultural shock. It's one thing to find yourself immersed in a culture, it's quite another to find that you have to immerse yourself in that culture to reach your teammates. This is an experience I have not encountered before; people have surprised me with the lengths they go to ensure a healthy diversity in company culture so…
Veering a bit off-topic: I used to get video games when I was younger, and played them obsessively, but around the age of 18, I almost completely lost interest. I occasionally will play online games with friends nowadays, but I do that more for the "hanging out with friends" enjoyment. The game is just a vehicle for that. I can't play a single-player game for more than 5 minutes without losing interest.
However. I really like playing Mario Kart in a group. But then it is more of a social thing, not a hobby.
Ok so I'm a girl who codes/programs and I'm my take on the issues she raised: Stereotypes about STEM fields putting girls off I can only talk about my own experience but I saw very few negative stereotypes about STEM fields growing up. Definitely not enough to put off girls. However, while I did start coding at a young age, I didn't apply my skill to a work/business purpose until my twenties. Why? I think this issue…
Great post though I'd like to add some thoughts to this bit: the professional/business world as a whole rewards and values masculine traits (competitiveness, talking highly of yourself and accomplishments, etc.) I'd argue those are better classified as extroverted traits rather than masculine traits. Believe me, there are more than a few males that suffer from this being the dominant culture in business (or anywhere)…
I've been working in and managing software development teams for a while. The most striking thing about the female developers that I've worked with is how quiet they are (I wouldn't say 'introverted').
Ever see those studies that show that the most vocal person in a meeting is considered the most knowledgeable by the group (even if they're the least knowledgeable)? Yeah - software development has this to the extreme.
At the local university where I was a bit involved into the whys of fewer women it seems to be that interestingly enough it seems to be related to friends and family of someone entering IT. If friends and family come up with questions like "But aren't there mostly men" and "Aren't to all video game nerds" or similar, then those stereotypes affect people and especially women, cause they are usually the target of such statements way more when deciding whether to study at a certain university.
So it's social expectations of others. I think if one wants to study computer science then it's not that much of a deal. After all students in general have a lot of room for stereotypes. Women in communication, men in medicine and students in general have stereotypes applying to them that many people simply don't identify with at all. I think if that would be having such a huge effect then there would be way fewer students overall.
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> bitch Unfortunately, that's how college kids talk. I wish they wouldn't be so crude, but the language isn't CS-specific. That women in general are doing so well in college in general relative to men suggests crude language on the part of college men is not a serious problem. In the professional world, that kind of denigration would be completely unacceptable. > Also, let me tell you this story of two friends I knew…
> that's how college kids talk That wasn't my experience at all. That kind of attitude or language would have been taboo.
Is it true that there is a "rise of pop-culture portrayals of scientists as white or Asian male geeks"? I've seen a little bit of TV this year - every hacker I saw was female, and most were goths. Doing a google search of "top TV 2014" and looking up the ones that are likely to have a hacker as a character, I discover "Arrow" (female hacker), NCIS (female hacker), 24 (female hacker), Criminal Minds (female hacker), P…
The most egregious recent example I have seen is Dark Matter. The women are all hyper-capable, responsible and determined. The men are all petty, flawed, impulsive and frequently fighting with each other. It's absurd if you realize what is happening.
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Let me rephrase what I said for clarity: the biggest issue now seems to be men not speaking up against their detractors for fear of being ostracized, of being labelled a member of a group with negative connotations, of facing a large internet backlash.
In which case, I absolutely agree. I've made the mistake of sharing my thoughts on these issues before. "But once you’ve won a culture war, free speech is a nuisance, and “eliminating” language becomes a necessity." - http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/thats-no...
Men -- men in tech in particular -- gotta buckle up and speak frankly. Learn to stand up for themselves, without letting other people -- women in particular -- control their every thought.
That last part sounds so banally corporate. And later in the article the author suggests we redecorate many/most programming spaces, academic and professional, into banal corporate farms like every other soul-crushing workplace.
The best high school teachers I remember were the ones to fill their classrooms with zany stuff related to their subject/field. Creatures from Disney's Hercules in a Latin classroom. Ancient Roman coins, sorted on a timeline by metallurgic debasement and inflation, in an economics classroom. A wall of student painted musical posters in a theater/dance classroom.
Is telling those teachers, "no, you can't decorate your classroom the way you want; it must look like the front office of ACME business park tenant," really the answer?
Or is it reforming our education system, especially high school, into an institution that discourages conformity? Or at least doesn't punish nonconformity?
Is there any concept that men and women might actually be different and thus drawn to different interests? Obviously there's crossover and not everyone fits the mold but should we be trying to shoehorn the video game introvert into public relations and the outgoing fashionable social butterfly into particle physics? I don't doubt that there is a gender disparity in many professions, but my honest question is whether it's actually a 'problem.'
If girls (or boys) are being denied their passion because of discrimination, then yes, absolutely, but if we're just sitting around complaining because more boys like computers and more girls like public relations, then it seems like a silly thing to worry about. More girls like to play with dolls and more boys like to play with sticks and pretend they're laser guns. That's a fact. If a girl wants to play with a laser gun stick (or a boy with dolkls,) then I'm all for it, but just achieving diversity just to please some statistian or some gender studies professor is to deny that biology does, in fact have an influence on behavior and choices. I know that in some feminist circles, that idea is blasphemous, but reality doesn't really care about what some adjunct professor thinks.
Trying to "feminize" computers or make it less "nerdy" (i.e. Changing the Code Therefore I am shirt) is ridiculous and actually insulting. There are plenty of girls that like Star Wars, "nerdy" things and math and science. Just because that type of girl is a minority doesn't mean there's some kind of conspiracy.