How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours • Hacker News Board

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#331

Post by mark-r » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 5:01 PM UTC

jasonlotito wrote: post #91

bitserf wrote: post #20

The problem I have with subscription model for my tools is this: It removes the option for me to decide to not upgrade because the improvements are not worth the cost. Note that I have been upgrading my license most every year, but chances are I'll just make do with what I have next time around. If the current pricing model isn't viable for them, I'm sorry, but it is not my problem. It's already the most I pay for an…

> The problem I have with subscription model for my tools is this: It removes the option for me to decide to not upgrade because the improvements are not worth the cost. That's fair. But at the same time, that presents a problem they mentioned. In order to get those sales, they had to worry about big features that would get people to buy. Bug fixes and performance improvements are things people want, but it doesn't m…

> bug fixes don't make sales.

Has anybody ever tested that hypothesis?

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#332

Post by clessg » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 5:03 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #310

rebootthesystem wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I have exactly zero interest in deviating from what I should be focusing on (my business, my product, my clients, my revenue stream) to go dork around with a text/code editor. Doing so, in the context of a real working business with clients, projects, timelines, deadlines and deliverables would be irresponsible if you can simply pay a company for which that product IS their product and business to deliver wha…

> Because I have exactly zero interest in deviating from what I should be focusing on (my business, my product, my clients, my revenue stream) to go dork around with a text/code editor. You can improve your productivity (i.e., increase your revenue) by improving your tools. A blacksmith makes his tools; a developer should be want to extend his environment. > unless you are a huge company that can afford to lose clock…

No idea why this is being downvoted. If you ask me, it's irresponsible not to invest in your tools and productivity. If you don't, you're wasting your employer's time and money. A bit of time "dorking around" in Vim will pay huge dividends over time.

Give it a shot. Open up `vimtutor`. It's easier than you think!

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#333

Post by toyg » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 5:04 PM UTC

fenomas wrote: post #309

mattkevan wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha, yes. As a daily user of Creative Suite, the 'cloud' benefits are fairly feeble. The file hosting is handy, but we already use Dropbox and Google Drive. The other features seem like they could have been incorporated into the desktop apps but were pulled into the cloud to make it appear more worthwhile. I can see how moving shrink-wrap software to a subscription can be good for the company – reliable income streams…

Former Adobe evangelist here. In my opinion, what you said about headline features is the crux of the matter. Under the subscription model engineering's only job is to make the user happy, so they can focus on performance or stability when needed, but when you sell a new box each year their main job is to make sales happy, with new demoable features. The result is always bloat. Whereas the "cynical attempt to milk mo…

> so when Adobe (or JetBrains) sold shrink-wrapped boxes

... they didn't have this wonderful option of bashing customers on their virtual heads and break their products if customers forgot to pay rent. It just wasn't an option, when it all started. Now it is, and here we are. The internet sometimes is just bad for people.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#334

Post by hinkley » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 5:05 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #282

hinkley wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What typical ones are you thinking about? And are you American? Americans are bad at math. Companies selling to us know this and it's common for them to offer a monthly contract for a device with an expected life of three years as price/24 if they're feeling generous, and price/18 if they aren't. I think the worst one I ever saw was price/14, and people still bought it. TiVo has prices closer to the worse end of that…

I suspect your comment would get fewer downvotes and still be useful if you dropped the jab at the parent commenter's math abilities.

It wasn't meant as jab at his math skills, but our math skills. Companies offer predatory monthly rates and we gobble it up, much to my dismay.

Edit: my ISP, for instance, will happily charge me $7 a month for an $80 router that I won't upgrade for 3-5 years. Who does that?

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#335

Post by cweagans » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

sgdread wrote: post #278

cweagans wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So don't. There are plenty of other tools out there that you can use. Did you previously pay the yearly fee to continue getting upgrades?

Now you paying not for upgrades, but the fee to use. No payment - you can't use it.

My point is, if you were paying the yearly fee before so that you can get upgrades, you were paying a subscription anyway. Yes, you could still use it if you didn't pay, but you paid. Why do you care?

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#336

Post by bgibson » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

newjersey wrote: post #285

PaulHoule wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, Eclipse has the Linux GUI curse. Linux users expect the GUI to be unusable so they split into the camps who (i) think Eclipse is the bee's knees or (ii) use vi. The difference between IntelliJ and Eclipse is like night and day -- Eclipse fans think the plug-in feature is great but install one too many plugins and your Eclipse will get sick with pluginitis.

I am a complete newbie so my perspective is inherently flawed but I am wary of installing anything on a Debian machine that I can't just get using aptitude (sudo apt-get install foo). Correct me if I am wrong but isn't it possible to create a Debian repository server at Jet Brains that I can add to my aptitude sources list and then install Intelli J and stuff from the conventional command line interface? Why does Jet…

Fwiw it's worth learning how to use the excellent Debian Alternatives [1] system to install stuff not in the repo's. Download the precompiled binary, or download the source and compile it, put in $HOME, /opt, or wherever you want, then use update-alternatives to soft link it into the standard system directories (/usr, /usr/bin, /usr/local, etc). You can manage and toggle between multiple versions of the same software that way, including the repo version, and lots more benefits, see github readme below.

Intro: https://www.debian-administration.org/article/91/Using_the_D...

Example setup scripts: https://github.com/byrongibson/scripts/tree/master/install/h...

[1]:https://wiki.debian.org/DebianAlternatives

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#337

Post by falcolas » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 5:08 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #287

falcolas wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To continue the analogy, most woodworker's tools are 1) well over three years old, and 2) have consumable components which cost well over Jetbrain's highest subscription cost every year. Not to mention, once purchased, a woodworker won't get upgrades to their tools, or have problems with them fixed as part of their ongoing cost. Consider it a contribution to a team whose tools you obviously enjoy, to ensure both that…

If the problem is low revenue, they should just raise prices and be honest about it. I mean, if you're already paying £100 for an IDE despite the wealth of free alternatives, you do it for a reason: because it's worth it. There might be a price point where it stops being worth it, but it's likely not £120 or even £200. You're already competing with free, so price is likely not much of a differentiator already. Instea…

> they try to achieve a relatively modest increase

Looking at their (current) pricing model for this, it seems like a drive for more predictable income, instead of additional profit. The ability to depend on getting X dollars per month makes it a lot easier to hire employees on, and justify working on the products.

And for many folks, Jetbrains will be getting less money out of them, since they're offering quite a deal for anyone who works with more than one of the products.

> fairly unjustified SaaS model

Except that they are providing constant, incremental upgrades to their tools as part of the model. That alone acts as fairly strong justification for a subscription model.

> Instead of driving sales with innovation, they now drive it with fear

Anybody who fears being unable to pay a $20 monthly bill is very unlikely to have paid $200 up front for the tool in the first place. Double that for any company who fears this new cost; they're already ponying up over ten grand per employee, another $20 isn't going bankrupt them.

To go back to the woodworker analogy - the woodworker who can't afford to replace the worn blade in their bandsaw has bigger problems than the monthly cost of consumables.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#338

Post by spitfire » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 5:09 PM UTC

mattkevan wrote: post #186

toyg wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some SaaS "hostings" are paper-thin, like Adobe or Steam. They are glorified FTP sites.

Ha, yes. As a daily user of Creative Suite, the 'cloud' benefits are fairly feeble. The file hosting is handy, but we already use Dropbox and Google Drive. The other features seem like they could have been incorporated into the desktop apps but were pulled into the cloud to make it appear more worthwhile. I can see how moving shrink-wrap software to a subscription can be good for the company – reliable income streams…

> before the whole thing crumbles.

Are there any alternatives to adobe on the horizon? I'm asking because I'd like to know. All I know of is affinity designer and pixelmator.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#339

Post by aantix » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 5:10 PM UTC

pixard wrote: post #270

aantix wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your license price jumps from $89 to $120/yr and now you're no longer a customer? Do you not think their tools probably make up for that $120/yr in terms of your productivity? If you struggle with Netbeans or Eclipse for an hour or two with something IntelliJ does easily, you've already paid for your license. I don't understand arguing about peanuts; pay it the trivial increase and get on with the show of making r…

I think (for me anyway) the problem isn't the price at all. It's the fact that if you let your subscription lapse you CANNOT use the product. In my case (small business) we have months of very low activity. Now if I let my subscription lapse then I lose access to the software and it becomes more expensive since I wouldn't have the existing customer discount anymore (presumably). I would easily pay double what I'm pay…

You need to use their tools. Jetbrains needs to pay the bills.

Your profit margins prohibit you from purchasing new licenses at $120/yr (it's a business expense, so it's even cheaper).

Your business model seems more suspect than anything to do with Jetbrains.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#340

Post by gfodor » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 5:12 PM UTC

There sure is a lot of complaining in this thread. But guess what: JetBrains makes the best tools in town, and the new pricing model is totally reasonable (and even beneficial for many folks.)

So, most people writing long screeds are just going to pony up and forget about it in a few months.