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F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

nytimes.com

321–330 of 452 posts

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#321
post #221

Pretty impressed with the negativity here. Just a year ago, I remember all the stories on HN with people lamenting that the FCC doesn't have the guts to regulate broadband as a utility under title II [1,2,3] (admittedly with a minority speaking against title II, most prominently rayiner, whose comments I generally look forward to for an interesting contrarian view). Y Combinator even published an open letter[4]. Quot…

"Politicians must think the tech community is a frustrating beast to work with."

Smart people are less predictable than those they have been marketing to previously. The biggest downside to this decision comes from the following line:

"But Tom Wheeler, the F.C.C. chairman, will advocate a light-touch approach to Title II, they say, shunning the more intrusive aspects of utility-style regulation, like meddling in pricing decisions."

To me, this is proof they are still in bed with the ISPs (which is not surprising), yet it seems they're claiming to do this for the benefit of the country. I'm not sure I believe that what benefits the massive ISP/entertainment conglomerates is by proxy beneficial to the rest of us. The state of the video broadcasting industry, for example, would be one piece of evidence to my skepticism of this theory. Over-the-top linear broadcasting via the internet has been possible, at least technically, for a long time now. And we have the bandwidth in this country to pull it off. The roadblock are the major cable companies who are making far too much money in their complete dominative ownership of the infrastructure to deliver video (currently), as they do not want to lose that business. So even if television stations wanted to move to deliver completely over the internet (and apps), they would not be able to due to contractual obligations. Plus, the cable companies have so much money they can literally buy out anyone who tries to compete with them. It's not enough of a monopoly to be illegal, because these companies don't own each other (yet), but there's definitely a lot of collusion and back-room deals happening.

So, while it's not surprising to me to find this little difference in the laws between electricity/gas/water delivery and internet service delivery, it does make me feel a bit sad inside. Because I know, deep down, this law is made for the Comcast/Cox/Charter's of the world, not the people who use the service. Again, we are reminded that the loudest voices in politics are that way because they are the richest.

That said, the idea is correct...the Internet should be a utility, something you definitely need to have but also need to pay for. It's the next logical step to allow the government to provide more services over the Web, which is cost-effective for them, a better experience for us, and ultimately makes the government a much cheaper beast to run. Almost everyone wants the government to cost less, especially with the debt we accrue every year as a country...

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know you can voluntarily send more money, right? http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/gift/gift.htm I'm sure it's already on your to-do list, of course.

I see this argument a lot but it seems specious to me - though anyone can voluntarily overpay their taxes, the lack of a guarantee that other taxpayers will similarly be contributing more means that my personal overcontribution will be meaningless to everyone but me.

Can we maybe try cutting back on optional trillion-dollar wars instead, and see how that goes? Just as a temporary experiment? If it doesn't work out, you can always raise my taxes later.

When someone misuses their money, you shouldn't react by giving them even more. Really, is this such a radically-offensive position for me to take?

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#324
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can dump my cable company if they piss me off. I can't do that with my utility companies

I can too, and then not have cable. At least with the utility company, I can put up PV panels and live off grid.

as if electricity is the only utility, right?

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can dump my cable company if they piss me off. I can't do that with my utility companies

In many parts of America, electricity is partially deregulated and you can switch providers.

and how about water, sewage, gas?

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#326

To me, net neutrality is pretty much a red herring. I have had good and bad internet service in my life. The least reliable was at my somewhat rural childhood home from TWC. The best is my current connection from that most reviled of companies, Comcast. I have had no service interruptions, and I get a reliable 50Mbps at all times of day (I check regularly with speed tests and checking Torrent activity). The reason my…

Of course competition would be the best solution but in case you didn't know, infrastructure is massively expensive and that greatly limits the ability for a new comer to enter the market even on a regional level.

It is in every ISPs best interest to be the sole provider of service in an area because they will have a better adoption rate and thus remake their investment quicker. This is the whole basis behind Comcast's argument in favor of the Time Warner take over, they aren't reducing competition because they each have their own areas where they operate so they so don't compete in the first place.

Think about that for a minute, the CEO of the biggest ISP in America admitted that they do not compete with the second biggest ISP.

There is a finite amount of competition the infrastructure market can handle due to high costs of entry and diminishing returns on that high cost as more players enter the market in an area. There is a finite amount of customers an ISP can have in any given area, it may make sense to build out to a market if you are going to be the only provider but if you are going to be the second or third provider your customer base is going to be smaller and as you start cutting up the available customer base there is likely not enough there to spend the upfront costs of building the infrastructure if you aren't going to get the amount of customers you need to support it.

The ISPs are already monopolies regardless of net neutrality rules, net neutrality will just require a certain level of fairness in how they treat the traffic of the content that passes through them. I would support requiring ISPS to open their wires for lease by competitors but net neutrality seems like a great second option if that is politically unfeasible.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#327
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a question of morality. What it boils down to is which side are you on. Do you care more about ISPs and their ability to do whatever they want in order to maximize their profits, or do you care more about the health of the ecosystem (Internet)? In your hypothetical, if an ISP could come with an offering that would hurt the ecosystem (by favoring X against Y, and hence not allowing the Internet to be a levele…

I do absolutely agree with you that ISPs are in a poor state in the majority of the US. I think a lot can be done to improve it. I disagree strongly that net neutrality is the most important or most effective lever to push on. As I have made clear, and as I think is fairly obvious to anyone who has moved between various ISP markets in this country, I believe that the quality of internet service is positively correlat…

I'm not arguing for less competition, far from it. If anything, the lack of competition is probably the main cause of the current situation.

However, net neutrality is the bare minimum. We should also advocate for more competition, just not at the expense of neutrality. Imagine we would let a grocery store lax the quality control on their products. They could sell more for cheaper, but the number of people who would get sick (or die) would increase. In a similar way, allowing ISPs to fiddle with throttling would have far negative effects for everybody. (it's not a direct analogy so please don't try to break it, that's not the point).

The $15 price range you mention is very doable, with much faster speeds than we currently have AND without having to compromise on neutrality. Our worldwide ranking is pretty depressing -- compared to what we could/should have. All these foreign ISPs are able to offer cheaper and faster connections without messing with neutrality. If ISPs must segment their offerings in any way then let them do it by speed (which they already do) or by how much data you can download/upload per month, but not by compromising net neutrality.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this argument a lot but it seems specious to me - though anyone can voluntarily overpay their taxes, the lack of a guarantee that other taxpayers will similarly be contributing more means that my personal overcontribution will be meaningless to everyone but me.

Can we maybe try cutting back on optional trillion-dollar wars instead, and see how that goes? Just as a temporary experiment? If it doesn't work out, you can always raise my taxes later. When someone misuses their money, you shouldn't react by giving them even more. Really, is this such a radically-offensive position for me to take?

No of course not, and I'd like to see less tax money spent inefficiently as well. My point was simply that it's specious to tell any one advocate of increased taxation that they should just foot the bill out of their own private pocket. That's not the point of taxation.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many parts of America, electricity is partially deregulated and you can switch providers.

and how about water, sewage, gas?

Natural gas is deregulated in some places: http://www.ohionaturalgas.com/deregulation.html

Honestly though, large utilities are a good case of a "natural monopoly".

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#330

Netflix traffic and some hypothetical future tech like Surgery-over-IP traffic should not be prioritized equally.

Yes they should.

Usually, I don't like making the 'slippery slope' argument, but it is quite appropriate here.

The dangers are real. We can allow nothing less than forcing IPSs to maintain complete neutrality on traffic type.

In your scenario, an ISP will determine that an organization is using their internet connection for this high-priority operation. The ISP then realizes that they can essentially extort the surgeon/hospital.

This is a mafia-like protection scam. "Don't want to pay up? Gee, it sure would be terrible if that internet connection of yours was to drop out at the wrong time."

Don't think this scenario is possible? I would argue it is probable.

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