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What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

paulgraham.com

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Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#321

Post by stegosaurus »

eru wrote: post #291
stegosaurus wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the incentives point, it seems to me that 'we' as a society focus far too much on money and expect it to paper over the gaps that employment inevitably causes. Finish after your children leave school? Money -> childcare. Can't get time off to cook for yourself more? Money -> restaurant meals. Small stuff. Office located in a stupid place like downtown, forcing _everyone_ into a silly commute. Lack of parking space…

Can't you move downtown?

In many places, not really.

If you can even afford it, it'd mean living in an apartment or sharing a place. And probably renting - the UK rental market is a nightmare in my experience.

Fine if you're doing it out of choice or prefer it, but when it's basically a condition of employment, it's too much of an encroachment upon home life to me.

I love having a garden. I like having the space to tinker with a vehicle. I like my home to be in a reasonably quiet area not buzzing with nightlife, and so forth.

Like I mentioned in the other post - many probably see it as an entitlement issue, but I think that's fundamentally flawed. I don't think it's wrong to believe that you should be able to control the time you spend outside work.

For a while I managed to get by in life by exercising what I can only really describe as thought control. I figured that if I could just adjust my desires, I would be happier. If I learned to enjoy things like sitting on a stuffy train and marvel at the fact that I'm flying through a tunnel, that would be the path to success.

Nowadays, 'success' has left the financial realm, mostly. I just want to get by and do the things that are precious to me. Life's too short, we deserve more than to throw everything away for work.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#323

Post by eru »

littletimmy wrote: post #217
adventured wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First start by recognizing that there can never be an alternative system to having to earn your way in this world. One way or another, someone's productive effort has to pay for things that get created, whether by currency or direct barter. The only alternative is slavery: someone else being forced to work to fulfill your needs, for no compensation or trade. And then understand that money is nothing but frozen time a…

I feel it is not true that there just cannot be another system. For a long time, there was such a system: homesteading. You could head out into an unclaimed area of land, stake out a piece, and live off it. It is quite recent that ALL land and capital has already been staked out, and that you have to live off the capital given to you by others if you perform chores for them. However, you are probably right in saying…

> You could head out into an unclaimed area of land, stake out a piece, and live off it.

The native would probably disagree with the `unclaimed' bit.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#324

Post by emerod »

stegosaurus wrote: post #154
stegosaurus wrote: post #75

What if the idea of work itself is what you dislike? There are plenty of activities I can enjoy, and some, quite a few of them in fact, are profitable. Once you shoe-horn them into the power dynamic situation of a traditional job (with the bureaucracy that entails unless you're dealing with Actual People as opposed to corporations), suddenly a lot of the luster disappears. As a ridiculous example - I enjoy reading. I…

As an addition to this, I've struggled a lot with the concept of working for pay and only recently could I really begin to explain why. Some people would probably call it 'entitlement', but I'm not really sure that's an accurate description. As an employee, your role is essentially a permanent state of brown nosing. First of all you must convince a rich person/company that you are worthy. Then you must convince them…

I have struggled with the same issues. Most work involves fitting into a social hierarchy and being rewarded by managers for preserving the appearance of tribal unity.

I finally had to leave corporate life for good. I discovered that what I do compulsively, other people compulsively avoid, and so I marketed it as my special skill. I also had to choose a field that encourages churn, so that I could be competitive as a freelancer. Eventually I found a job with an institution that gave me more autonomy than I would ever have in the corporate world. Ironically, my commercial skills have helped protect me from institutional politics. But I may get sucked in by ambition.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#325

Post by cylinder »

enjo wrote: post #48
Pyret wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it always intimidation, though? I find programming unimaginably boring.

I'm a programmer and I completely agree. When everything was new it was fun and exciting. I started programming seriously when I was 12 years old. By the time I was in college programming was an absolute chore. Yet I do it for a living, because building things is incredibly satisfying. Ya about 90% of the time I'm kind of bored, but actually finishing things (useful things!) makes it all worth it. Interestingly I fou…

Everything new is interesting to me, that's the problem. I like building things too. So I'll think I need to make a go of being a programmer. Then two weeks later I'll doubt that and think, maybe I should be a builder / real estate developer? Pretty much everything interests me when it's new and challenging, but I'm not interested in being a master of anything.

It's a personal crisis...

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#326

Post by cylinder »

Noxchi wrote: post #197
stegosaurus wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an addition to this, I've struggled a lot with the concept of working for pay and only recently could I really begin to explain why. Some people would probably call it 'entitlement', but I'm not really sure that's an accurate description. As an employee, your role is essentially a permanent state of brown nosing. First of all you must convince a rich person/company that you are worthy. Then you must convince them…

Economic activity is the process of changing things. For example, a lumber will chop down trees and sell them for $5000. He changes forest into logs. A house builder will buy those trees, and then take the money he has saved and pay someone to make the planks, another person to nail them, and another person to do all the other things needed to make a house. This person changes some wood and metal into a house. He wil…

Not really, the builder made more money because they took on more risk: they bought land speculatively, they took on a massive loan, built a house on speculation that someone will want it. Lumber took on much less risk to chop a few trees and sell a commodity that has a defined market value. Better analogy is the lumber who took on debt and grew into a massive organization that buys land, processes trees into lumber and sells wholesale. This is more of what a home builder is and there are plenty of very large, rich timber companies.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#327

Post by pjbrunet »

tutufan wrote: post #316
pjbrunet wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I secretly hate programming, debugging, programmers, git, the whole enterprise - just seems so stupid & futile." Git seems like an evolutionary step tovards something more intuitive and efficient.

I would say truly _revolutionary_. A spectacularly useful tool. And yet, there is something to Devops Borat's quip that in 1990 entire Internet fits in head, but in 2012, just git no longer fits in head. (paraphrased)

Revolutionary, sure. I just think it solves a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. Like if we could prevent cancer, we wouldn't need revolutionary cancer medication.

If I go into Google Docs, I can watch different people edit a document at the same time and nobody is really thinking about version control. I think software development should be the same way.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#328

Post by cJ0th »

Bahamut wrote: post #295
shostack wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I failed algebra one year in high school. I thought I was absolutely the worst person in the world at math. Turns out, crappy teachers and a teaching methodology that is diametrically opposed to one's optimal learning style count for a lot in school. However what was amazing to me was how I went from zero confidence in my math skills to actually being excited about math when I took geometry. I never studied once in t…

I encountered many students with such misconceptions of their math ability when I taught as a grad student for two years. With many of these, it turned out they had a strong talent for it, they just didn't have a good pre-college math education. I would tell those students that they possessed a good ability at it and encourage them to try pursuing a math-related career. I don't know if I made a difference in that reg…

> Educators should do more to reinforce their students and help improve their passion.

Absolutely. I studied CS, failed at Algebra and Analysis and decided to drop out. Perhaps I lack the talent/intelligence but I've definitely lacked a good math experience in school and tutors at university haven't been helpful at all. Now I am doing my masters degree in business (with little passion for it and mediocre grades) wondering what I am going to do with that degree. I still dedicate my spare time improving my programming skills but only occasionally find time to make significant progress.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#329

Post by tutufan »

pjbrunet wrote: post #327
tutufan wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say truly _revolutionary_. A spectacularly useful tool. And yet, there is something to Devops Borat's quip that in 1990 entire Internet fits in head, but in 2012, just git no longer fits in head. (paraphrased)

Revolutionary, sure. I just think it solves a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. Like if we could prevent cancer, we wouldn't need revolutionary cancer medication. If I go into Google Docs, I can watch different people edit a document at the same time and nobody is really thinking about version control. I think software development should be the same way.

Maybe. (I say maybe because I could see it turning into pair-programming-like chaos.)

But mostly, git solves a different problem. I find it incredibly useful on my own one-person projects, because it lets me explore forward in numerous directions, branching as I go, and easily roll back and move forward again.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#330

Post by stegosaurus »

eru wrote: post #322
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means that your solution is exactly like the problems the parent was enumerating, throw money at it.

Oh, sure. That's what money is for.

The point I was trying to make is that money is not a cure-all.

Yes, with a high enough salary, you may be able to move downtown.

But is that actually a replacement for a small-ish home with a yard, a drive, potentially a garage, etc?

Of course not.

I don't think it's necessary for there to be a choice between 'live downtown' and 'live far out but have a horrible commute'.

As far as I can tell, lots of 'business-to-business' style companies don't need to locate their office right in the centre of town. Neither does a dev shop that doesn't have retail clients that walk in on foot.

But they do, a lot. Why? Am I missing something blindingly obvious? Zoning laws? Owner can afford a mansion around the corner so doesn't care? It's a mystery to me; it really is.

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