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Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

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Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#321

Post by AnthonyMouse »

exelius wrote: post #159
ChuckMcM wrote: post #97

There is an interesting unbalance because Comcast has so much leverage by owning the last mile, they can push around Tier 1 providers. I'd like to fix that, mostly by creating a public policy around municipally owned Layer 1 infrastructure between customers in their cities and a city exchange building. Conceptually it would be no different than the city owning the sewers and outsourcing the water treatment plant to a…

This is how it should probably be done if we were starting from scratch. A system like the one you describe would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $300-500 billion; which isn't completely insane as far as national infrastructure projects go. The problem is that we're not starting from scratch. It's a lot harder for the government to justify that expense when there are a number of viable privately-owned alternati…

> Fiber optics are awesome now; but what happens in 10 years when we need a new type of quantum fiber made from carbon nanotubes to go faster?

Fiber optics are awesome now. Fiber optics were awesome in the 2000s, and the 90s, and the 80s, and the 70s...

Quantum fiber isn't a thing. Nobody has even proposed anything to replace fiber with and copper has lasted more than a hundred years. You can get Tbps out of fiber so we should be good for a while. If somebody invents something to replace fiber with, we can deal with that when it happens (probably a hundred years from now).

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#322

Post by marcosdumay »

rgbrenner wrote: post #286
morgante wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't buy into the cable PR. They have incredibly high margins and could easily make upgrades without further gouging customers.

"incredibly high"? Comcast and Time Warner have profit margins of 8-10%. For comparison, Target has a profit margin of 3%, and Google's is 21%. Sounds more mid-range to me. As for your second point, that they could easily make upgrade without additional charges.. have any numbers backing that up? The last mile is expensive.

It's not the last mile that needs to be upgraded.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#323

Post by edraferi »

sadris wrote: post #215
ChuckMcM wrote: post #97

There is an interesting unbalance because Comcast has so much leverage by owning the last mile, they can push around Tier 1 providers. I'd like to fix that, mostly by creating a public policy around municipally owned Layer 1 infrastructure between customers in their cities and a city exchange building. Conceptually it would be no different than the city owning the sewers and outsourcing the water treatment plant to a…

Municipal governments should threaten to regulate last-mile ISPs like power companies unless they agree to let competitors use their cables. Virginia requires that competing power companies be allowed to use power lines, why not fiber as well?

Absolutely. Isn't this what the FCC's Title II / common carrier provisions are for?

my understanding is that's what happened to make long distance affordable: the maintainers of the copper had to allow other forms to connect to customers.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#324

Post by edraferi »

ilaksh wrote: post #295
runeks wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the purpose? We're getting to the root cause of the problem here: lack of competition. These ISPs already have the lowest customer ratings. If the customers could switch to another ISP they would. This stunt would amount to kicking a man that's lying down. He's already used to the shitty quality of his Comcast connection, but now he's being punished by CDN providers without being able to do anything about it.

The reason there is no competition is because of regulations and physical constraints. We need ultra wideband mesh nets. Or some kind of single strand fiber with a glue that attaches it to the street and a new law that says that laying fiber strands is a natural right of every citizen.

I very much think broadband internet should be treated as a basic utility. however, I feel that "natural right" takes it too far. it's a very high bar to reach

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#325

Post by techsupporter »

amatix wrote: post #301
mentat wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So please tell us, why is it not done? Contract provisions? Lack of profit?

Both. Most common, SewerCo says "pay for half of our digging costs" and FibreCo says "You're getting paid by the city to dig it up already! Why should we pay again?"and round and round we go. Also, if either SewerCo or FibreCo's work has delays, then there's another whole drama about who pays/is responsible for additional work, penalties, and so on. And the respective Project Managers don't give a rat's ass about the…

This is why the municipalities--in the United States--that have city-operated utilities should be doing this. In Seattle, for example, Seattle City Light is the legal owner or half-owner (with the local telco) of every utility pole in the city, along with ground easements for electrical service. Since Seattle City Light and Seattle Public Utilities (the water and sewer provider) are two departments of the same city, they share the same easements and access rights. Tearing up a street to rebuild the street, reconstruct a sewer, or bury electrical wires is all done by the same entity, so adding in fiber conduits is easy as long as there is the budget.

Sadly, that last sentence is the kicker. "As long as there is the budget." There's no line-item in the city budget for building a municipal data network that covers the last mile (Seattle has a rather sizable not-quite-last-mile fiber network).

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#326

Post by ChuckMcM »

malandrew wrote: post #313
ChuckMcM wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points, allow me to share with you a bit of my strategy. There is a case to be made that much of the tearing up of the streets is a function of people laying down multiple communication infrastructures along side each other. We looked though the permits for the last 12 months and compared that activity to a on-going repaving and road maintenance work. There are several interesting variables at play in that, cost…

Exactly, TBH I don't understand why we don't have the conduit equivalent of the shipping container. i.e. a completely standardized, royalty free design for laying cables in urban environments that are completely interchangeable and manufacturable by any company. From there, the city can just lease the space on a basis of (meters * diameter * demand coefficient for a particular route) Does such a standardized conduit…

Sort of, there are lots of standardized pipes and conduits which are spelled out in building codes. I've seen installs where the company doing the install just digs a 20" deep trench and unrolls fiber into it, and installs where they put in pipe and then pull fiber through it. I would be really pleased if, by having a known quantity of installs, we could get some work done a sort of standardized civil engineering plan. Part of the permit process with conduits is that the city requires the conduit not crush under some multiple of the max load the street is rated for (assuming its under the street). That involves some number of billable hours by a civil engineer and some test specifications from companies. If there are more standard versions of these things that can be pre-approved for a wide variety of situations, it will reduce the cost of installation.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#327

Post by femto »

yaddayadda wrote: post #242
ChuckMcM wrote: post #97

There is an interesting unbalance because Comcast has so much leverage by owning the last mile, they can push around Tier 1 providers. I'd like to fix that, mostly by creating a public policy around municipally owned Layer 1 infrastructure between customers in their cities and a city exchange building. Conceptually it would be no different than the city owning the sewers and outsourcing the water treatment plant to a…

Utah already has something like this called UTOPIA ( http://www.utopianet.org/about-utopia/ ). The participating cities run fiber optic lines. The city pays for the fiber optic lines (lots and lots and lots of political controversy about this!) then subscribers can pick and choose what services and from which providers they want. I'm in a participating city and love it! Unfortunately politics, both the governmental a…

That sounds like a similar model to Australia's endangered National Broadband Network. The government owned NBNCo lays the fibres to customers' homes, then ISPs lease bandwidth to service their customers.

It seems to be facing the same issues that you describe, with some politicians being unable to stomach publicly owned infrastructure.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#328

Post by yaddayadda »

femto wrote: post #327
yaddayadda wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utah already has something like this called UTOPIA ( http://www.utopianet.org/about-utopia/ ). The participating cities run fiber optic lines. The city pays for the fiber optic lines (lots and lots and lots of political controversy about this!) then subscribers can pick and choose what services and from which providers they want. I'm in a participating city and love it! Unfortunately politics, both the governmental a…

That sounds like a similar model to Australia's endangered National Broadband Network. The government owned NBNCo lays the fibres to customers' homes, then ISPs lease bandwidth to service their customers. It seems to be facing the same issues that you describe, with some politicians being unable to stomach publicly owned infrastructure.

Interestingly, there is an Australian corporation, Macquarie Capitol Group, that may take over the administration of UTOPIA - http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/57282051-79/macquarie-uto...

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#329

Post by couchand »

busterarm wrote: post #261
jimbokun wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If ABC has a blank channel, but you can still watch CBS and NBC and ESPN just fine, the average consumer will assume the problem is with ABC. If all the channels are blank, the average consumer will blame the cable company. Similarly, if "the Internet is down", from the customer's perspective, they're going to blame the ISP, not Netflix/Hulu/Amazon.

Not true. I work for a cable/fiber ISP. Customers always blame the ISP. Even when the problem is the feed (like with CW's networks last month)...or when some dipshit construction company digs where they aren't supposed to. Luckily I don't work for one of the horrible ISPs that everyone hates, but we're definitely more in the blame-receiving business than is warranted. Folks don't understand the complexity involved in…

Wait, did you just call broadband internet a "utility"? As in a Title II utility?

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#330

Post by femto »

yaddayadda wrote: post #328
femto wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a similar model to Australia's endangered National Broadband Network. The government owned NBNCo lays the fibres to customers' homes, then ISPs lease bandwidth to service their customers. It seems to be facing the same issues that you describe, with some politicians being unable to stomach publicly owned infrastructure.

Interestingly, there is an Australian corporation, Macquarie Capitol Group, that may take over the administration of UTOPIA - http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/57282051-79/macquarie-uto...

Macquarie Capital isn't little known here. They are famous for being able to extract maximum fees from public infrastructure. If they live up to past form [1,2], they will turn UTOPIA into a river of gold, and the source of that river will be the customers.

[1] http://www.smh.com.au/travel/blogs/travellers-check/the-true...

[2] http://www.smh.com.au/business/macquaries-sydney-airport-pla...

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