Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

"Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

bugzilla.mozilla.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

321–330 of 373 posts

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#321

Post by scotty79 »

LaGrange wrote: post #243
scotty79 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dumb lawers litter my web. Whining is the only thing I can do. Besides, even small bar often becomes huge bar on mobile.

Again, blame the web designers who don't even do enough diligence how others do the same. And demands of proper, obvious labeling is one of the better tools to stop companies from putting useless crap everywhere.

I don't see this. Web is filled with advertising, new laptops are filled with crapware. Labeling didn't do nothing to stop these things. What we get from lawers on the web are idiotic terms and conditions, "I agree" buttons under the wall of text, copyright craziness with idiotic cease and desist, persecution of people publishing secrets or just snooping around. I think if lawyers kept there noses out of the web it would be much safer place.

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#322

Post by sergeykish »

just2n wrote: post #169
gkoberger wrote: post #22

Here's a very relevant blog post by Alex Limi of Mozilla: http://limi.net/checkboxes-that-kill/ Most sites these days that aren’t just displaying content will fail in interesting & mysterious ways if you don’t have JavaScript enabled. For the general population, Firefox will appear broken. And yes, I know that some people have reasons (privacy, web development) to turn off JavaScript. There are many add-ons that can…

I have to say that this article is actually quite terrible, as is the opinion that any option that might ever be confusing to a user is an option that shouldn't ship with the product. The thesis of the article is: "Well, we have met the enemy, and he is us.* In the currently shipping version, Firefox ships with many options that will render the browser unusable to most people, right in the main settings ui." The solu…

> Problem: People today change some feature then have a "broken" browser They forgot what is changed, how to return back, no reset is not a solution. Solution: Educate users, provide "Undo" and "Redo" buttons, highlight changed controls

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#323

Post by Aardwolf »

_mvuc wrote: post #293
jclos wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your sandwich analogy is spot on in the sense that I can also just ask a human "please make me a sandwich" without specifying anything, and (most) humans could proceed to do so without more details. There should be more options, and a good "default" mode for people who don't want to fiddle with them. To my knowledge this is why most wizards have basic configuration options and a "advanced" button to click for…

can also just ask a human "please make me a sandwich" without specifying anything, and (most) humans could proceed to do so without more details Depends who you ask. My mate and a few close friends would know to make me a sandwich without bread, but hardly anyone else would get that right.

I would give you a plate with ham, cheese, salad, egg, tomato and mayonnaise. Does that sound about right?

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#324

Post by dthunt »

kbenson wrote: post #319
dthunt wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you arrived faster at a citation of Poe's Law than actually reading and considering the things I said, you are doing Internet wrong.

I did read them, and I did consider them. After thinking up a reply as why you think basic client display capability querying mechanisms are inappropriate, I decided you were most likely being sarcastic. On (multiple) repeated readings, I'm not really sure you were intending to make a point one way or the other. If I attribute the second sentence of It IS effective in the sense that running no javascript really limit…

Correct. I'm being completely serious, with the exception of the remark about exploding limbs (obviously).

Broad enumeration capabilities of this sort don't make sense. You don't need me to tell you why, because the moment you considered these features not existing, you immediately thought up alternatives that didn't involve running javascript, some of which require changes in the way people think about building web-pages, some of which may require changes in various specifications.

JS has more features than it deserves for learning about and (critically) sharing information about the host platform. Yes, you can still learn some things as a website operator by watching what browsers load/don't load, and what they put in their requests.

That does not mean that disabling javascript doesn't have value w/r to privacy concerns. Compare panopticlick.eff.org w/, w/o javascript enabled.

Edit: I should hasten to add that there are other concerns beyond privacy, like accessibility and the fact that a web page has no bloody business deciding that I'm likely running an iPad and therefor I shouldn't have access to X or Y. This is dumb, and contrary to the idea of the open internet. It's the same thing that's wrong with this EME nonsense.

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#325

Post by karussell »

karussell wrote: post #296
gnosis wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Javascript, Flash, HTML 5, and virtually all the rest of the HTML "enhancements" are a cancer on the web. Honestly, the only website that I can think of where using Javascript actually does something useful that I'd have a hard time doing better on a standalone app on my own machine is Google Maps, where it's nice to be able to scroll around by dragging the map with the mouse. But even there, I'd gladly sacrifice tha…

You are funny. IF you enter the destination in Google Maps, then of course Google knows your destination. JavaScript on or off... if you really want privacy you'll have to host it on your own or use offline navigation tools

yes I've missed the point. but your description wasn't clear enough. It could have also meant standalone in the sense of a native app without the normal javascript spy ad ons..

> It just so happens that since I do not have such a standalone mapping application

feel free to try my open source graphhopper project btw ;)

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#326

Post by Someone »

just2n wrote: post #169
gkoberger wrote: post #22

Here's a very relevant blog post by Alex Limi of Mozilla: http://limi.net/checkboxes-that-kill/ Most sites these days that aren’t just displaying content will fail in interesting & mysterious ways if you don’t have JavaScript enabled. For the general population, Firefox will appear broken. And yes, I know that some people have reasons (privacy, web development) to turn off JavaScript. There are many add-ons that can…

I have to say that this article is actually quite terrible, as is the opinion that any option that might ever be confusing to a user is an option that shouldn't ship with the product. The thesis of the article is: "Well, we have met the enemy, and he is us.* In the currently shipping version, Firefox ships with many options that will render the browser unusable to most people, right in the main settings ui." The solu…

I am not planning on implementing that, but let's pretend I want to. When would that dialog come up?

Attempt #1: show that dialog as soon as a page tries to load some JavaScript. Result (I'm guessing): dialog shows up on 99.9% of all web pages one visits (even for the nerdiest of nerds)

Attempt #2: silently download the JavaScript to figure out whether it is 'benign' or 'evil'. Result: users complain that they pay for downloading stuff they do not want.

Attempt #3: make that dialog less intrusive; do not require acknowledgment. Result: users get trained to overlook it; users who accidentally enable the mode will never figure out what happened to their browser.

Attempt #4: a whitelist of allowed scripts. Problem: users will disagree about what should make it into the whitelist.

Attempt #5: the JSBlock extension. This may have merit. So, if you want this feature, download it, or write it if it doesn't exist yet. If the API does not allow writing it, bicker Mozilla.

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#327

Post by kbenson »

dthunt wrote: post #324
kbenson wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did read them, and I did consider them. After thinking up a reply as why you think basic client display capability querying mechanisms are inappropriate, I decided you were most likely being sarcastic. On (multiple) repeated readings, I'm not really sure you were intending to make a point one way or the other. If I attribute the second sentence of It IS effective in the sense that running no javascript really limit…

Correct. I'm being completely serious, with the exception of the remark about exploding limbs (obviously). Broad enumeration capabilities of this sort don't make sense. You don't need me to tell you why, because the moment you considered these features not existing, you immediately thought up alternatives that didn't involve running javascript, some of which require changes in the way people think about building web-…

Ah, I took your position as being able to determine screen size (or have it determined automatically through CSS or some other hands-off mechanism) itself was also unneeded, not just that JS should not have this capability.

I can get behind most of what you say - as long as we are talking about simple, presentation based websites.

Where I think there's a breakdown in this view is when you consider complex web applications, including games. At that point, I believe some level of inspection capabilities are required, if we desire to have complex web apps delivered through the internet. I'm by no means sold that on-demand web delivered code is necessarily a good thing though. There's far too large a surface area to adequately secure while still making it useful, IMHO.

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#328

Post by jrochkind1 »

pessimizer wrote: post #309
jrochkind1 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people don't know the difference between diesel and gasoline, is a note that says "Note: Diesel is not the same as Gasoline" going to help? Doubt it. The assertion is that 'configuration creep' is overwhelming for the unsophisticated user in the first place, adding even more notes and explanations to all the configuration options is not going to help.

>If people don't know the difference between diesel and gasoline, is a note that says "Note: Diesel is not the same as Gasoline" going to help? Doubt it. Really? I would think that sign would help everyone who knew how to read, bothered to read, and wanted their car to run. A sign with a simple message like that was enough to fix one national timeclock system that I worked on. "Do not do X before 12:00 Noon unless Y.…

If they don't know the difference between diesel and gasoline, how do they know if the one they want is "diesel" or "gasoline"?

But, yes, clearly, the goal is removing configuration until the app does one thing well, not badly.

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#329

Post by Groxx »

gnosis wrote: post #63
camus wrote: post #53

I exclusively surf with javascript disabled by default. I only turn javascript on on websites that i trust or the site has to give a good reason to do so. i wont turn on javascript to display your crappy jquery menu or slideshow. So many pages are totally broken without javascript. You dont need javascript to have a good layout, a complexe menu or display images. Yet some "professional" sites dont even work without j…

Javascript, Flash, HTML 5, and virtually all the rest of the HTML "enhancements" are a cancer on the web. Honestly, the only website that I can think of where using Javascript actually does something useful that I'd have a hard time doing better on a standalone app on my own machine is Google Maps, where it's nice to be able to scroll around by dragging the map with the mouse. But even there, I'd gladly sacrifice tha…

So you're not OK with giving a site a fairly narrow range of sandboxed permissions, but you are OK with installing an opaque binary that can read, modify, transmit, and destroy nearly every piece of your data on your computer.

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#330

Post by driverdan »

gnosis wrote: post #63
camus wrote: post #53

I exclusively surf with javascript disabled by default. I only turn javascript on on websites that i trust or the site has to give a good reason to do so. i wont turn on javascript to display your crappy jquery menu or slideshow. So many pages are totally broken without javascript. You dont need javascript to have a good layout, a complexe menu or display images. Yet some "professional" sites dont even work without j…

Javascript, Flash, HTML 5, and virtually all the rest of the HTML "enhancements" are a cancer on the web. Honestly, the only website that I can think of where using Javascript actually does something useful that I'd have a hard time doing better on a standalone app on my own machine is Google Maps, where it's nice to be able to scroll around by dragging the map with the mouse. But even there, I'd gladly sacrifice tha…

TL;DR: Get off my lawn.

HN demonstrates good use of JS: AJAX voting. Forcing you to navigate to another page in order to vote is slow, annoying, and disruptive. Plenty of sites make good use of JS. For those who don't use NoScript.

Post reply on HN