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Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

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Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#321

Post by Capricorn2481 »

jazzypants wrote: post #256
magicalist wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean they've boasted[1] about their generated code being so good that they add basically zero value and that they're riding out the rentseeking for as long as possible. Meanwhile they've apparently played with LLM porting of Postgres (or Postgres features?) and "would not put it in production"[2], so we can also guess the kind and scope of features being discussed here. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4959…

It's a pretty bad sign when you need to resort to this kind of comment stalking to try to find ammunition for a general argument. This user could be a complete con man, and it still wouldn't invalidate the core thesis of LLMs providing business value.

Hard disagree. It adds context to what they said.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#322

Post by Capricorn2481 »

epihelix wrote: post #278
sinuhe69 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it works for you, great! Just keep going. I only have the nagging question that if it’s so easy, why would the clients not do it by themselves? Certainly they understand their problems better than you and they can adapt to rising issues faster if their in-house team does it themselves. And certainly what kind of AI you can access, they can too and perhaps even more. So what will remain your value propositions? I’m…

> If it works for you, great! Just keep going. I only have the nagging question that if it’s so easy, why would the clients not do it by themselves? Because it's not (yet) that easy, especially if we're talking a complex and genuinely useful app. Agentic coding is fast, but it's not magic. > I’m a critical user, not a categorical denier. But there are certain categories where I see the current AI face a wall: fitting…

I don't think that really matters. I have already seen companies generating their own code and just QA testing it, with no software engineers in sight. Or they ask us to "review" their 10k loc PR in 2 hours.

The spirit of the parent comment is true. People feel like it's productive and even if they make something worse, they are going to use it.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#323

Post by lowbloodsugar »

corv wrote: post #7
glimshe wrote: post #3

We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. I love being able to quickly bring out the program that is already running in my head without having to worry about the grind of typing it into a format that the compiler understands. Dealing with API names. Syntax. Language quirks. Library go…

I like your constructive outlook and I want to believe that we can now focus on the bigger picture, but I'm not really seeing it around me. Most everyone I know that's "AI-pilled" has spent the newfound capacity on throughput instead of altitude. Is anyone actually seeing a shift towards improved structure rather than more code, faster? We seem to be living in the Gatling-gun version of the picture John Carmack drew…

Miyamoto having an assault rifle doesn’t exclude 19 year old cannon fodder also having assault rifles and spraying them liberally to little effect.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#324

Post by sriram_malhar »

Razengan wrote: post #315
sriram_malhar wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just AI. I would like a world without the poison of social media, without guns & bombs, without dangerous chemicals. Yes, in many many ways we'd be better off. We are accelerating the destruction of our planet. I don't have a better plan for humanity. I only have fear.

> a world without the poison of social media No radio, no newspapers, no town criers, no gossip at the alewife's house? > I don't have a better plan for humanity. I only have fear. So your best move is to go around spreading that fear without offering ways to fix shit or inspiring anyone else to do so?

C'mon, you know better than to invoke a slippery slope.

My best move is to influence the people I care about to reduce dependence on these things and seek happiness in non-tech things (where tech is defined as those controlled by corporations), from community, live life from first principles. You are forcing me to answer a strange binary ... propose a fix for the world at large, or let me continue with all this shit. The world isn't as black and white.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#325

Post by dragontamer »

LarsDu88 wrote: post #47
motionlessveloc wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Musashi's era, meaning the late 1500s, kendo (sword fighting) was absolutely about being as "productive" (read: lethal) as possible. As it happens, this was also the era when firearms had just been introduced to Japan. In 1575 Oda Nobunaga demolished the Takeda cavalry at the Battle of Nagashino, marking the first time firearms had been used at scale in Japanese combat, and in 1600 Musashi participated in the deci…

The end of the Sengoku Jidai was triggered by a warlord (Nobunaga) who equipped his armies with massed ashigaru levies armed with long spears and tanegashima arquebuses. It was absolutely a technological brawl where the valiant highly trained cavalry of warlord's like Takeda Shingen got mowed down by the bullets of musketeers stationed behind well prepared and covered firing positions. If it was still going on today,…

Everyone in Sengoku Era Japan had access and knowledge of guns and cannons.

The key for Nobunaga is "Ashigaru". Nobunaga gave the guns to the peasants. That also means that Nobunaga mass produced the guns to a level that no one else was doing.

Yes it was a technological brawl, but inadvertently it was one that worked with and uplifted the Ashigaru into a real combat force.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#326

Post by lowbloodsugar »

Yoric wrote: post #147
enraged_camel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Is anyone actually seeing a shift towards improved structure rather than more code, faster? Yes. At work we recently finished a complete rewrite of the platform. The old codebase got abandoned and two new codebases got stood up. Previous stack was Phoenix LiveView and the new one is Phoenix API + Vue /w TypeScript. Zero code shared between the two. We took the opportunity to re-architect a lot of the core function…

That is interesting, but... is it actually improving structure? We're mid-way through a similar process at work. Rewriting a legacy app in a new language, with new architecture and new features. And it's a mess. We're at 10x loc (admittedly, the new programming language is more verbose than the old one), comments make no sense. Yes, we have ~100% coverage, but most of the tests are meaningless. The agent keeps removi…

In my experience, when you attempt something like this it grows like a crystal. If you start badly, with poor tests and poor architecture, that is the code that has the attention of the model going forward. More than any rules you give it, what matters to the model is all the code that’s already there. I’ve found myself in such a situation from going to fast and expecting new hyped models to “just take care of it”. The solution was to stop and take stock. I ended up deleting most of the dead-end and using the models to refactor the rest. From that point on, new code from the models was at the standard I needed, following rules already expressed in the code base.

If your code base is script-kiddy garbage, your models are only going to keep writing more garbage. You should throw it all away. I expect that isn’t an option. Try instead instructing the model that the code you have is legacy garbage written in a hurry that needs siginificant refactoring, but that right now I need one new feature written to these new standards instead. Take it one small piece at a time. Don’t let context go beyond 100k. Good luck!

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#328

Post by lowbloodsugar »

SoftTalker wrote: post #298
glimshe wrote: post #3

We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. I love being able to quickly bring out the program that is already running in my head without having to worry about the grind of typing it into a format that the compiler understands. Dealing with API names. Syntax. Language quirks. Library go…

I'm exactly the opposite. I like knowing how the code works, what the data structures are, what APIs are being used, and yes even typing the code into the editor. When I'm working with LLMs there's less thinking. I'm bored. My brain is not fully engaged in the task. There's less sense of accomplishment in the finished product. I also prefer to drive cars with manual transmissions.

Yes. You are the Kung Fu master in Carmack’s analogy.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#329

Post by criddell »

SoftTalker wrote: post #298
glimshe wrote: post #3

We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. I love being able to quickly bring out the program that is already running in my head without having to worry about the grind of typing it into a format that the compiler understands. Dealing with API names. Syntax. Language quirks. Library go…

I'm exactly the opposite. I like knowing how the code works, what the data structures are, what APIs are being used, and yes even typing the code into the editor. When I'm working with LLMs there's less thinking. I'm bored. My brain is not fully engaged in the task. There's less sense of accomplishment in the finished product. I also prefer to drive cars with manual transmissions.

Do you consider yourself to be part of the retro computer scene?

> That’s ok! The retro computing scene is delightful, full of people building and exercising old skills for the love of it.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#330

Post by Seattle3503 »

orangecat wrote: post #293
xyzsparetimexyz wrote: post #10

'Make sure you don't fall behind!!!' is my least favourite type of post about ai. There's resllt nothing to learn about ai. You're just typing and telling it what to do.

There's nothing to learn about being an engineering manager. You tell your developers to write code, go on vacation, and come back to a completed product.

AI is built to adapt to you. ICs aren't.
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