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Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

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Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#321

Post by callc »

user43928 wrote: post #228
WhiteDawn wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be a push and pull and I'm curious where we'll be in a couple of years. I can fly at 100mph if I let AI run loose and with a bit of steering I can get it to output what I'm looking for and generally pass verification and tests. If I care about the code though, and I want to keep it maintainable, the amount of time and tokens I need to spend correcting and iterating on the output quickly eats through much of t…

I also spend a lot of time at work trying to get the code into a shape I deem acceptable to open a MR for the team, without looking incompetent. At home I stopped reviewing the code for my mobile app, and I do not feel this has affected maintainability. With 150k LOC, the AI still performs changes as easily as it did three months ago, when I started the project. If anything, the new models made it easier. When I read…

150k sounds like a LOT… what’s your use case for the app?

It seems for any particular problem/comexity there is an estimate of how many LoC is needed (written by humans, good coding practices). And after reaching maturity (and not increasing scope) the LoC converges.

My experience with LLMs so far is it’s a constant battle to not explode the LoC. There’s always pressure away from “maintainability” and a “small elegant cohesive” codebase.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#324

Post by sourcecodeplz »

MostlyStable wrote: post #30

I take the point, but I think the author picked a poor analogy. Cooking even an excellent steak is actually not that hard. In fact, I'd argue that it's among the easiest things to master/make at a top level quality at home. Does it require some modicum of attention and understanding? Sure. But starting with a high quality cut, owning a meat-thermometer, and knowing about reverse searing is about all it takes to relia…

what even is a perfect stake?

is it rare, medium-rare, medium, well-done?

i think it is subjective.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#325

Post by 1659447091 »

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #71
PaulRobinson wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All metaphors break at some point. However, your example actually proves the point. How many people who want a good steak know how to identify a high quality cut? Do they even know where to buy a high quality cut? What the different cuts are and whether they want rump, sirloin or fillet? How many kitchens have a meat thermometer? How many home cooks know how to use it and what the right temperature should be? How man…

Go to costco, buy prime filet. Put it in a ziplock in a sous vide at 130 for an hour. Drop it in corn oil at 425 for 30 seconds. Add some butter and salt. That simple process, suggested by Nathan Myhrvold (former MSFT cto) in the modernist cuisine, produces a filet better than most restaurants.

> Go to costco, buy prime filet. Put it in a ziplock [...]

What in the world are you guys in this thread doing to steak? Absolute blasphemy. Costco steak? ziplock bags? drowning it in warm water? deep frying in corn oil? meat thermometers?

Steak is not this complicated. The important part is the meat itself. Find a decent butcher (preferably one that dry-ages) or use a grocery store's butcher cuts over stuff they bulk package. Also, ribeyes (bone-in but if not still ribeye), other cuts are for steak and egg omelets.

Lightly salt (or season, oil, dry-rub, etc); Pan sear, preferably blue steel cookware; then broil.

Don't stab the meat with a meat poker...after cooking enough steaks the same way one can simply tell what temperature is. Ask me to cook anything else outside steak and eggs and I will absolutely butcher it, but steak deserves better than ziplock bags and deep frying

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#326

Post by jonfromsf »

Hikikomori wrote: post #143
MerrimanInd wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm more of a coffee nerd than a steak aficionado but I've often made the comparison between those two. In both cases, the enthusiast considers their skill in making coffee/cooking steak to be a differentiator and they immerse themselves deeply into the process, skills, and tools. But for both coffee beans and steak the most important factor for a good end product is starting with high quality inputs. In other words,…

I'd say that using a manual espresso machine and getting good tasting coffee from light roasted beans is vastly harder than making a good steak.

Using a manual espresso machine is one of the hardest culinary preparations. It takes much more skill than one would assume!

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#327

Post by dlcarrier »

dom96 wrote: post #254
dlcarrier wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cross-platform widget engines (Tk, GTK, Qt, wxWidgets, etc…) long predate Electron and have always been robust, stable, well documented, and easy to use. It's not creating a single application for multiple native desktop environments that was difficult, it's writing a single application as both a web interface and a native desktop environment on any platform that's difficult. Because CSS is constantly changing, incon…

I've used GTK in the past and I wouldn't consider it robust nor easy to use. But most importantly, it doesn't look good, especially on macOS. No matter how hard you try, you cannot make it feel native. But the point is: LLMs should make it easy to generate a native UI for each of the main platform's UI frameworks. GTK should no longer be needed.

GTK is probably the worst of the bunch, and Tk is the most underrated. Everything looks bad on macOS, because Cocoa's API isn't as stable or well documented as Microsoft's DirectWrite and GDI variations nor obviously X or Wayland, which are open source.

Either way, getting something to appear the way you want it to in GTK is worlds easier than doing so in CSS, and it runs much faster, with a fraction of the resources.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#328

Post by airstrike »

ssl-3 wrote: post #319
airstrike wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should really read the dictionary definition of the word "chastise". https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=chastise

To criticize severely; reprimand or rebuke. k.

Pretty hard to be criticizing someone severely if I'm not even speaking to them specifically, don't you think? You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I'm entitled to my opinion, which I self-described as a bad hot take.

Sounds like you're the one specifically reprimanding me here? Oops...

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#329

Post by PyWoody »

litoE wrote: post #294
BeetleB wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure the author intended it as a regular "we".

There's also the wifely we, meaning "you", as in "we need to take out the trash."

My dad's reply to that was always, "We? What, do you have a mouse in your pocket?"

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#330

Post by hluska »

MostlyStable wrote: post #30

I take the point, but I think the author picked a poor analogy. Cooking even an excellent steak is actually not that hard. In fact, I'd argue that it's among the easiest things to master/make at a top level quality at home. Does it require some modicum of attention and understanding? Sure. But starting with a high quality cut, owning a meat-thermometer, and knowing about reverse searing is about all it takes to relia…

Cooking an excellent steak consistently requires paying attention to many small details and executing each perfectly. Individually with the exception of choosing a steak, they’re all quite easy. Taken together, it takes a relatively uncommon interest in detail.

It’s not surprising people on HN find it easy because attention to detail is rewarded in this community/its employers. But common here and common are different beasts.

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