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Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

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Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#321

Post by ransom1538 »

Schnitz wrote: post #166

Because people that enjoy programming for programming's sake don't want an LLM to do the programming for them - isn't it obvious? It's just like with any other hobby, people who like car racing created rules that force you to drive yourself, even though they'd get faster lap times with electronic driver aids. People who enjoy grappling created rules that force you to grapple, even though striking could win a fight fa…

"Because people that enjoy programming for programming's sake don't want an LLM to do the programming for them - isn't it obvious? "

How do we filter out these people during an interview?

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#323

Post by c0rruptbytes »

alkonaut wrote: post #224

Programming has five phases effectively: 1) You figure out what problem to solve. 2) You figure out HOW to solve the problem. 3) You actually implement the solution. 4) You see the solution work, for yourself. 5) You ship/deploy/publish the program. This means you see people be happy users and/or you get paid for it and so on. If you're an entrepreneur type, you probably enjoy the first and last steps most, and you s…

i would call myself a tinkerer but still don’t have a necessity for 3)

it’s more akin to 3d printing to me, i get the design all setup and let the machine do 3) and then get to play with it in 4)

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#325

Post by [deleted] »

kypro wrote: post #277
shiomiru wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the economic problem that programmers had until recently been highly regarded because steps 2-3 were hard. "Open source" solved this partially by utilizing the labor such (relatively) well-paid people gave away "for the love of it", but it was not nearly enough to put most out of work. Now there is a plagiarism machine built on top of decades of this work that seemingly solves 3 and promises to solve 2 (…

This is unfortunately just the result of technological progress. People for centuries have crafted extremely hard to acquire skills over decades only to find their labour being made completely worthless due to automation or better alternatives disrupting their industry. Carpenters, hatters, cobblers, miners, weavers, calculators, etc... We can get mad about it, but it just is what it is. Ultimately for most people th…

[deleted]

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#326

Post by lp4v4n »

kypro wrote: post #277
shiomiru wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the economic problem that programmers had until recently been highly regarded because steps 2-3 were hard. "Open source" solved this partially by utilizing the labor such (relatively) well-paid people gave away "for the love of it", but it was not nearly enough to put most out of work. Now there is a plagiarism machine built on top of decades of this work that seemingly solves 3 and promises to solve 2 (…

This is unfortunately just the result of technological progress. People for centuries have crafted extremely hard to acquire skills over decades only to find their labour being made completely worthless due to automation or better alternatives disrupting their industry. Carpenters, hatters, cobblers, miners, weavers, calculators, etc... We can get mad about it, but it just is what it is. Ultimately for most people th…

Regular people are somehow preparing themselves for this outcome, have you seen what has become of the fertility rate in most advanced countries?

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#327

Post by burnoutdv »

Schnitz wrote: post #166

Because people that enjoy programming for programming's sake don't want an LLM to do the programming for them - isn't it obvious? It's just like with any other hobby, people who like car racing created rules that force you to drive yourself, even though they'd get faster lap times with electronic driver aids. People who enjoy grappling created rules that force you to grapple, even though striking could win a fight fa…

for me its that software, wrought by hand is "bespoke". Yes, there is a loooooot of software that is just commercial, quickly vomited by hands that are just in it for the money. On the other hand there are open source projects who might have a miss guided design philosophy (Darktable comes to mind) but are otherwise build from people that care. There was an "artisan" at work, someone who cared.

When I see all those "show HN" projects that are slot level code it feels like they dont care about the result that much and just want to showcase their idea in a more tactile way, but there is no actual proper execution to make the thought into matter so to speak

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#328

Post by gghackernewsgg »

alkonaut wrote: post #247
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're a tinkerer, you don't care much for 1 and 5, and you see 2-4 as the whole point of programming. I'm a tinkerer. I'd be happy to just write code and throw it away. Coding is like solving sudokus. I could skip steps 1 and 5 forever. [...] The 5 phases look kind of symmetric. The outermost layer (1 and 5) are the entrepreneurial steps. Even if you deeply into tinkering, 1 can be an insanely exciting and rewa…

Yeah. I enjoy 2-4 most, 1 is the next, and 5 the least. I think the litmus test here is "if you knew could never deliver this to anyone, make money of it, get recognition for it, or even make it solve one of your own problems you have. Would you still be willing to spend time on it?" If the answer is "no" you are probably more entrepreneurial than tinkerer. But it's a spectrum.

Good test. I would add one more question: "if you could never talk about your code or solutions with anyone, would you still be willing to spend time on it?"

This helps differentiate between coding as an end and coding as a means to socializing.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#329

Post by bananaflag »

embedding-shape wrote: post #299
bananaflag wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate? I think back in the 90s when I was a teenager I thought it to be a good thing that there is a rise in status for a class of people characterized by clear thinking.

The older I get, the more I realize how many problems in society is because there are different "classes" of people. The more we can eschew that, the better it becomes for most people. While yes, I also see myself as having "clearer thinking" than many people , maybe because of the thousands of hours building and maintaining software, I'm not of the impression that my life deserves a higher status than others merely…

I thought it more in the sense of: if a clearer-thinking group has higher status, then clear thinking would be encouraged among the population.

(This did not happen that much, ofc.)

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#330

Post by ben_w »

kypro wrote: post #314
gliall_err wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a sophomoric oversimplification. The US and Europe might have lost a lot of craftsmanship knowledge at a social level. Yet, what is left is so far ahead of what has ever existed in countries in South America for example. And China has gained a lot. Witness that youtuber trying to make grill brushes in the US. These differences have an impact in terms of opportunities and competition. It's easy to sit at home,…

> Look closer and you'll see that what happened in the UK in the 1700s was in fact enabled by a long and deep tradition of craftsmanship that only got enriched by the rise of new power sources. Craftsmanship today is vastly more advanced than it ever was before industry. I suspect the horses are healthier and stronger than in the 1700s too. I'm not sure I understand your point? I'd agree that the niche of extremely h…

> I suspect the horses are healthier and stronger than in the 1700s too. I'm not sure I understand your point?

Horses? I doubt it. They're still infamously fragile creatures today, even with penicillin and vaccinations existing; similarly for strength, not much call for shires and they're now on an "at risk" conservation list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shire_horse -> https://www.rbst.org.uk/watchlist-breed/shire-horse/

Possibly also fewer horses in total, though I don't know any stats for that far back and may be over-estimating based on the stats I do have for c. 1900.

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