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Leaving Mozilla

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Re: Leaving Mozilla

#321

Post by zzo38computer »

thisislife2 wrote: post #320
godelski wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they had listened to their users It seems to me like they are. A lot of people actually use those AI features. Particularly translate. The other I like is semantic search. Those are genuinely useful things. When people are complaining about AI it seems vague and like they're complaining about something else not related to Firefox. What is it, the optional chatbot side window? I agree that's annoying, but it's pr…

Thank you for engaging politely and reasonably in discussing this. My complaint wasn't about AI ... it is about force-bundling whatever this-will-make-us-money-feature or we-think-its-a-great-feature idea into the browser without giving the user any real choice (or control) in the matter. I am not against Firefox management exploring alternate revenue streams or even "innovative" feature ideas. In fact, mostly everyo…

I agree with you.

The extensions and plugins should be separated from the rest of the program, like any other extensions, and can be configured and disabled by the end user.

Some of the extensions might come with the distribution, but if so, there should also be another package available which is the same program but without any of the extensions included with it (and should be just as easy to find and use, rather than making it difficult), and also the possibility that if you downloaded it with the extensions it can be disabled, and that if you downloaded it without the extensions then you can still install them like any other extension if wanted.

People who do want the AI features can have them, but not as a core part of the browser (the extension mechanism can be enhanced if it is found to be insufficient, which would help with many other things as well; however, the end users should still be able to control the security features of extensions regardless of who wrote them or where they come from), and possible to get it without those and other potentially unwanted extensions.

Even many official features of WWW may be potentially unwanted; in some cases, these might be made as extensions, and in some cases, they might be made as options which can be configured and disabled. Either way, they should be documented; it is good to have good documentation for any software (and should not require an internet connection to use, even for a web browser).

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#323

Post by xmprt »

DrewADesign wrote: post #146
xmprt wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that large orgs need all that bureaucracy. But is it still true that productivity needs large orgs? We see a lot of massive hits coming from small teams - whether it's startups, movies, indie games, etc.

With almost no exceptions, movies are never made by small teams beyond the student film level. Even then, dozens of people are usually involved in some way. Writing, acting, score, foley, editing, distribution, graphic design, color grading, wardrobe, effects, lighting, cinematography, scheduling, props, location scouting, set decoration, casting, mixing… the list goes on. Any one of those things sucking badly enough…

When I say small I'm referring to anything under 50 people. Maybe you could go as high as even 100 without needing a ton of bureaucracy. I think a lot of indie films have teams under 100.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#324

Post by account42 »

halJordan wrote: post #275
thisislife2 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is true - Firefox is definitely held to a higher standard here and elsewhere. They marketed those values to us. So the criticisms, in my opinion, are definitely justified. And no, they aren't listening to their users. If they had listened to their users they would have delivered what every users wants - just a browser . Not some kind of "platform" stuffed with lot of unwanted crap that makes it bloated and intro…

No one marketed luddite anti-values to you. And it's a step too far to act like anything that contradicts those wants are actually immoral

You might want to look up the terms you are using because you are not making the argument you think you are making.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#325

Post by account42 »

supriyo-biswas wrote: post #18
matsemann wrote: post #5

Interesting to read, but ultimately it's very easy to blame "leaders" for everything and I'm not sure it has much merit. It's popular to pile on them and their decisions. But I don't think it's as obvious as people (often here on HN) make it out to be. If Mozilla didn't try out these avenues deemed wrong, if Mozilla spent all money on the browser only, if Mozilla made the best browser ever, would that really make a d…

The problem is what "enthusiasts" want is typically opposed to what is needed at the time to improve the product, such as: * Wanting niche features that don't benefit other people than those in the enthusiast core, thus preventing the company from gaining market share and revenue. * Ever-increasing expectations in terms of visible feature delivery (e.g. e10s was widely seen as a failure despite being foundational to…

> Wanting niche features that don't benefit other people than those in the enthusiast core, thus preventing the company from gaining market share and revenue.

Except power user features benefit everyone even if most people will only use some of them. Power users are users and users are potential power users.

> Ever-increasing expectations in terms of visible feature delivery

There is no such expectation. In fact, I'd much prefer it if there were NO breaking changes.

> General conservativeness in terms of anything that breaks workflows

Yes, that's a very reasonable expectation for a tool that people need daily.

> Most importantly, lack of proposals for monetization from said audience

When you build infrastructure you don't go looking how to monetize your users, you look for funding. The lack of funding is 100% due to Mozilla preferring to suck on google's teat because Google doesn't question executive compensation as long as those executes do what they want.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#326

Post by account42 »

Natfan wrote: post #259
yason wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IRC's UI is horrible. (Like email.) No wonder people don't want to join it. I consider it a feature that acts as a filter.

if you consider a high bar for entry to be a good thing, don't be surprised when your community dies

Eternal september has shown that the opposite is even more of a problem.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#327

Post by account42 »

ktallett wrote: post #11
klez wrote: post #7

Some 10 years ago I was a Mozilla volunteer. I mainly worked on MDN, to the point of becoming a so-called "topic driver" for the glossary. Some of the work I did landed in the citations of a couple of papers about web technology. They flew me a whole week to Vancouver for an event where employees and volunteers worked together in the same room and they even made me (and the other volunteers ) attend a sort-of-corpora…

Do Mozilla really still need volunteers in this day and age? Tbh even in 2015. They are established enough to not need to exploit goodwill.

They wouldn't be "exploiting" that goodwill if they were still following their original mission instead of larping as a silicon valley startup / tech giant (whichever is more convenient).

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#328

Post by account42 »

veeti wrote: post #75
blackhaz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention scandals like this... "In 2018 she received a total of $2,458,350 in compensation from Mozilla, which represents a 400% payrise since 2008. On the same period, Firefox marketshare was down 85%. When asked about her salary she stated "I learned that my pay was about an 80% discount to market. Meaning that competitive roles elsewhere were paying about 5 times as much. That's too big a discount to ask peo…

Incidentally, I have recently come across some Mozilla job postings with salary ranges I would consider to be at a considerable "discount to market". For example, here is a senior role at 59 000 euro per year: https://job-boards.greenhouse.io/mozilla/jobs/7843229

That salary would be OK for an actual charity where you work there because you believe in the mission. The problem is that Mozilla is confused and thinks they should be a for profit corporation with a bloated executive.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#329

Post by account42 »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #216
GuB-42 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't want a browser without extensions. Ad blocking in particular. To me, ad blocking belongs in extensions. The job of a web browser is to show web pages as intended according to the standards. It includes all the ads, tracking, etc... the page has put in. If you want to block stuff or deviate from the standards in any way, that's what extensions are for. And extension like ad blocking are an arms race, websit…

Extensions are the primary threat to your security today. Nothing else comes close. Organizations are not basically competent if they are not restricting or blocking extensions, and you should not have more than one to three very trusted extensions in your browser. I'd argue the case for eliminating them in favor of in house code is significant. As a reminder: Extensions execute with post-decryption access to the web…

Websites themselves are a much larger threat than extensions - should your ideal browser remove support for them as well?

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#330

Post by account42 »

MatejKafka wrote: post #117
deanc wrote: post #108

I really wish Mozilla would focus relentlessly on a privacy-first, performant browser across major platforms. Nothing else. I don’t want extensions (attack vector), vpns, fancy bookmarking services that are deprecated later on etc. I want to browse the web safely and privately and preserve battery life - nothing more.

How do you expect Mozilla to make enough money from just Firefox to survive if Google ever decides to stop paying them for being the default search engine?

How do you expect the red cross to survive if they can't monetize the people they are helping?
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